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A few complaints..and perhaps, some suggestions


Crotale

Power User
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Hi everyone.

I have been a member here at PSG for some months now. I know that I my words have no weight in regards to authoritative speech, so my appeal here is not to admonish anyone or instruct anyone on how to operate this website or conduct their business as a member. What I am going to do is to voice a few complaints and hopefully pose some useful and valuable suggestions. I make these complaints having no expectations that any action will be taken and that my suggestions are nothing more than suggestions. I am not an eloquent speaker or writer, and may not best articulate my position, but I will try not to offend or step on anyone’s toes in the process.

Note: if the admins feel that my post is unnecessary, please feel free to delete it and I will be glad to refrain from future discussion regarding these points.

My general complaint encompasses that of the Photoshop Freelance Work (Fee for service section). I have been noting that not all freelancers, including myself, adhere to that sub-forum’s rules. One such violation, albeit likely not intentional, is posting sample images without requesting admin approval via the Report function. I know I totally overlooked that requirement on accident, but I feel it is a key point.

This brings me to the next issue: watermarks. I know this has been discussed ad nauseum here, so I won’t open discussion about whether they should be used, but I do wish to address the actual use of them. If members are going to admonish another member on the effective use of watermarks, there should be a forum approved standard. Deviantart, as an example, offers up a watermark, but does not make it a requirement. I know the PSG rules require use of a watermark in the Freelance for Fee forums; I am not debating that requirement here. That being said, the watermark should be effective enough to prevent use of the image inconsistent with the wishes of the author, as stated in so many words in the sub-forum’s rules.

Photoshop Gurus could offer up a psd template that includes a standard opacity and fill layer of a PSG watermark graphic and disclaimer text. A second layer may include sample text that may be changed to the designer’s online or real name, but should be set to the same level of opacity and fill. This entire watermark, when added to a sample freelance image, can be scaled to meet the image’s dimensions. Use of this watermark as intended shall greatly increase a designer’s opportunity to pass admin/mod approval. This action also should preclude the need to discussion of watermark application in the client’s request thread.

Tailgating the aforementioned complaint, my next one is about unnecessary discussion in client request threads in the Freelance for Fee sub-forums. As I stated earlier, I know it isn’t my authority to comment on or question how PSG members conduct themselves, but I do see a lot of unnecessary discussion in these threads. In my very humble opinion, we should not be discussing potential misconduct by other members, debating watermark effectiveness or any other off-topic items in client request threads. We have Off Topic and Site Suggestions sub-forums for those purposes. Clients should be made aware that they have the Freelance Designer Reviews sub-forums to voice a complaint, or they can PM an admin. I know we cannot expect these sub-forums to remain totally clutter free, but we should strive to stay on topic as much as possible.

Since the overall forum is vBulletin-based, and I have administrated some vBulletin-based forums in the past, I know that sub-sections of the forums can be instrumented to work differently than the main forums. What I mean to say is the Freelance Fee for Service section should be set up to allow only approved members to post. This helps enhance client’s experience and it gives the admins greater flexibility in insuring that enhancement is not impeded.

Any member can have read privileges in this sub-forum, but posting should be limited to pre-approved members. Here are my suggestions:


  • Clients should be required to acknowledge via PM that they have read, understand and agree to the applicable forum rules before being granted posting privileges in this sub-forum. This requirement should preclude admins/mods from moving requests to this forum until they verify the client has permission to post in this sub-forum.

  • Freelancers (PSG members) should not be granted posting access until they have been validated as authorized freelancers. Freelancers should be required to acknowledge via PM that they have read, understand and agree to the applicable forum rules before being granted posting privileges in this sub-forum. This mechanism affords admins/mods greater flexibility controlling access in case a freelancer has shown that he or she, as one example, should not be representing PSG in this capacity but has not committed a serious enough infraction to warrant a total or permanent ban from the main forums.

Hopefully, I have made my case in a way that promotes my suggestions in a positive manner. If I have offended anyone or overstepped by boundaries, I do apologize.

Thanks for your time.

Sincerely,

Cliff
 

iDad

Guru
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Totally understand where you're coming from and I respect your thoughts.. Here are just a few thoughts of mine, of yours
“we should not be discussing potential misconduct by other members” are you kidding?
“We have Off Topic and Site Suggestions sub-forums for those purposes”(discussing freelancers behavior is not an off-topic situation) If a client posts about conduct of another member or freelance member it should involve all freelancers of this site, my opinion is if one freelancer of PSG is is getting away with misconduct or false representation that falls on all freelances of PSG.
PSG statement of client freelance work is just that ,client/freelancer, PSG is not responsible nor does it want to be responsible for monetary aspects of any job excepted here.
Therefore it leaves it open to all freelance members to speak up for themselves. To prevent other freelancers from pointing out misconduct or even clients is a form of censorship in my opinion.
I would think to except freelance jobs via this website you would be opening yourself to praise and ridicule. This praise minus ridicule is total BS if you want to freelance and you don’t do it right you shouldn’t be doing it in the first place, especially amongst honest members nothing gets me pissed off more than dishonesty.
 

dv8_fx

Retired Administrator
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Moved to relevant forum.....


Note: if the admins feel that my post is unnecessary, please feel free to delete it and I will be glad to refrain from future discussion regarding these points.


Not at all, Cliff. Your feedback as well as anyone's is much appreciated.

Point well taken with regards to Freelancer Qualifications. A subject that has been brought up and discussed by the forum management on numerous occasions most especially when certain situations pop-up.

PSG was never intended to be a FREELANCE job site. Freelance Section was created with the loyal PSG member in mind - to give them the opportunity to partake in real world design process and give them a chance to earn a bit through the use of Photoshop.

It all boils down to trust that members , new users or visiting clients will not abuse or take advantage of the system in place. It was decided by the site's second owners (previous owners) that anyone can qualify for freelance - for as long as they are active in the forum and rendering assistance to anyone who come in. Hence we have the 30-30 ruling which was adopted and maintained by the current owners.

Initially and when the site exchanged hands a third time, freelance activity was visible in the forum with all dealings done within the thread. This was intended in order that every member has a chance to participate and for the moderating team to watch over and supervise the proceedings.

As time past, clients began to opt to deal with freelancers in private and out of the forum. In keeping with the times and change, this was allowed.


What you suggest and ask for in terms of changes to Freelance qualification is an excellent one. Altho this will entail a lot of changes and updating of the forum's system controls. Changes that are beyond the decision and capacity to act upon by its current Moderating Team.

I can't guarantee anything but your suggestion merits a look into by higher authority.
 

dv8_fx

Retired Administrator
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With regards to having a one use, official freelance forum watermark template...

Again, this was discussed before ... even long before you were a member.... lol

Such a template may not be suitable for all sample work images. It is for this reason that we leave the watermarking of images to the creator/designer.

This is left to the member's imagination and discretion of how he or she wants the watermark to be..... for as long as it protects his image from being used. The goal is to make it difficult for unscrupulous people to use the raw image.

Although watermarking isn't a guarantee that your image is safe. All it takes is a skilled individual to re-create the design. But for most clients without image editing skills who come here, a watermark may deter the person from running off with your work.
 

Crotale

Power User
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iDad, I meant, and said, we should refrain from discussing these issues in the client request thread. I am totally open to transparent discussion but I feel it should be relegated to a more appropriate forum.


dv8, I hear exactly what you are saying about the watermark. As I suggested, this would not be required but would help to ensure the freelancer greater success in getting his sample image approved, but he can still opt to use his own watermark.

Thanks for the feedback, both of you!
 

Hoogle

Guru
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Not read through all of it but I will say this.

PSG/forum does not offer freelance work it is just merely a place of contact, The rules are just in place to protect both parties, I would say probably over 50% of paid work through this site is off no one elses knowledge other than the 2 parties doing a trade.

This limits s on things like a standard watermark that everyone uses a watermark is suppose to be branding and clearly state who owns the image. In an ideal world every original image/artwork uploaded here will have some kind of watermark on or at very least info stating who made the image and a contact email.
This is to protect you guys. We get very little paid work come through here and the jobs we do get are just snatched up by the same 3 or so people.

This is not what the freelance is for as dv8 said it is a good place for people taking a hobby and stepping up into the beginnings of the business side of it. hence the fact the average price is very cheap compared to other places.

Unfortunately people believe that a watermark ruins their work and doesnt display it as it should be seen, I do understand that
There is also an argument about anyone with a semi amount of skill can duplicate your work and bypass the watermark that may also be true, but this is our point. You will always find someone on the internet willing to do something for free, You post an image and say you want $100 as an example, that image gets saved and reposted on another forum or sent to someone in INdia offering to copy your work for $5 or free.

If you make it hard for them to edit out your watermark then at least if need be you can state that you uploaded the image and it has clear ownership details, not that you would have much luck seeking damages or plagerism in some other Country, that may not have the western view on it, but at least if a western company or anywhere for that matter pops up with your design without your knowledge or permission you will have a good case.

And yes freelance reviews are not just their to sing our praises if someone did not do what you ask then write a bad review that is what it is for, as long as it stays factual and to the point and just a how many insults can we squeeze into 1 sentence.

Once again it is not PSG doing the job on this forum it is the person you choose as an independant, we can not and will not accept responsibility and there is nothing we can do when the work was sourced and contracted through pms.

This has been discused recently where a member did a job for someone received great response hired for a 2nd job and not so good. details are still gray and I thought an agreement had been made but just been informed there is a new thread continuing on which I am trying to find.

All though we do not accept responsibility and can not step into something that was arranged without anyone else knowing we would like to look after our members and try and get a happy resolve, and certainly dont want the reputation flying around the web that we rip people off.
 
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I think the problem is that when you upload an image, the details on who created it are lost.

Did somebody say something about uploading pictures without approval? Surely not!
 

Paul

Former Member
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Trust is the key, a trust in doing the right thing, a trust in behaving above board, a trust that others see and follow.
Simples SQUEAK.
 

iDad

Guru
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People are banned for less. It may suck but if I hired a person to work on my house and they ripped me off, the house would be off limits to them PERIOD
 

ibclare

Queen Bee
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As has been stated above, we have discussed freelance ad nauseum and have settled on how we want to operate the section. It isn't perfect and as Hoogle said, you can't stop people from making direct contact via PM with the OP. We post the guidelines for freelance with a link for the OP on most cases if it is obvious they haven't yet read these. We ask that they deal with only qualified freelancers and that the member must post their intention on the thread. But we can't intercept behind the scenes offers.

As for the WM, we have surely discussed this in the past and as was said above, decided to leave that to the individual, and it is a branding. That said, it is almost impossible to prevent intellectual/artistic theft of a simple vector image which can be traced by anyone. We have to rely on the ethical behaviour of the OP. And the member. Not always going to be the case that people give a crap about anything but the price they pay, sometimes not even the quality.

Getting an image approved on the site requires a mod or admin to actually view and accept it. If the freelancer does not report it and get attention, it will likely be discovered eventually, one way or another. Even if reported, it does not guarantee immediate action since mods aren't always present. (there was a time when Hoogle was here 24 hrs/day so he would approve them almost before they were posted!)

To address the issue of off-topic discussion. This is almost always going to happen to some extent. If the OP is obviously open to it, has a good sense of humour and partakes, then it is fine. We do the same with each other, as long as we are familiar with each other I hope. If the discussion gets rude, long-winded, too many posts that interfere with the job, downright flaming, we will delete posts or series of posts and possibly PM those involved. If the banter is pretty innocuous, we just delete it as unnecessary fluff, so to speak.

Unfortunately, we are not always around to monitor this stuff. So we rely on you guys to report when things get out of hand. Please do this. We do our best to keep an eye on things, but, you know, not super heroes. But don't say that aloud. Some of us think we are. JK?
 

iDad

Guru
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This is a copy paste of post number five, who is this hours design?
iDad, I meant, and said, we should refrain from discussing these issues in the client request thread. I am totally open to transparent discussion but I feel it should be relegated to a more appropriate forum.


dv8, I hear exactly what you are saying about the watermark. As I suggested, this would not be required but would help to ensure the freelancer greater success in getting his sample image approved, but he can still opt to use his own watermark.

Thanks for the feedback, both of you!
 

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