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using work of others


Tom Mann

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CL - If you truly want to understand the legalities of the situation read this: http://webnet77.com/webstuff/copyright.html .

I think it was IamSam who originally pointed out this nice summary to this forum. Please don't complain that one page of text was too long to read and then continue to make utterly naive statements / arguments.

As you have been told before, the bottom line is that if you didn't create it, it isn't yours.

However, should you decide to ignore this guideline and modify (without explicit permission) and post an image that someone else created, the chances are nearly 100% that you'll get away with it because of various factors such as (a) the copyright holder isn't aware of the infringement, (b) the image, modified or not, has no commercial market, so there is no big money to be made from suing you, (c) the copyright holder or his assignees don't have deep enough pockets to pursue a legal remedy.

That being said, consider the considerable surprise of the street/graffiti artist, Shepard Fairey, when he was recently fined $25,000 and sentenced to probation in the case involving him modifying and re-distributing (in the form of a poster and T-shirts) an image of President Obama from the Associated Press, and then making matters worse by lying about the source of the image: http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2...d-sentenced-to-probation-in-hope-poster-case/ .


Earlier in this thread, you said:

this is so complicated :'(
all images i manipulate have been on my laptop for ages so tracking them now will be real bother

one more thing 70% of the anime i google has many sizes in many forums n sites so finding who really designed that particular image is really really hard n sorta impossible

can i say the main render is not by me n the credit goes to WHOEVER made it n be on the safe side or things doesnt work this way ??

To be blunt, if you ever found yourself talking to a lawyer or a judge, they would laugh at your statements, exactly as they would laugh at someone who stated that "going the speed limit is a real bother", or "it's kinda hard or sorta impossible to know all the rules about driving".

Also, as a friend who is a patent attorney once cautioned me, attribution (as evidence of good intention) may keep an aggrieved individual from becoming mad enough to sue you, but once they do, attribution, good intentions, lack of legal knowledge, etc. mean almost nothing when it comes to copyright issues. What matters is whether you had a license to use the work or not.

On discussion forums such as this, I either (a) use my own images, (b) rely on an implied license granted when someone asks for help 'shopping their image, or (c) rely on the TOS of some photography forums which, by signing up to use the forum, you grant other members the right to tweak your images for educational purposes. I would never EVER use a photo or piece of art created by someone else and tweaked by me beyond that venue unless the TOS explicitly allowed it.

Finally, you mentioned that you use zerochan.net and that they are completely silent on these issues. This may be because they are located in a country with less strict copyright rules than the USA, or it might be that they are equally naive / immature and don't mind risking the small chance of actually facing a lawsuit. Personally, I would regard them much the same way one would regard a great deal from a shady character selling electronics from the back of his car: It probably belongs to someone else but changed hands a few times before it got to him. You may argue that the situation is different because you are not paying zerochan.net any money. It isn't different. They may not be getting money from you, but they are getting it from their advertisers for the use of art which in some cases isn't theirs.

HTH,

Tom M
 
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ibclare

Queen Bee
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OK, I can see you are getting frustrated here. We wold all like you to post and participate. Let me take a look around that site for you. I guess the one thing I would ask is, if there are no rules, just to stay safe within our forum expectations, cite the website you used for your picture sources. In the meantime, I will explore the site and see if there are any disclaimers, but I believe you when you say that there are not. It's just that this would be a most unusual thing in today's internet art world. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.

PS: I just read Tom's very complete reply to you about copyright infringement and ignoring such. Please be patient and read all of it.

PPS: here is the rules page: http://www.minitokyo.net/policy

If anyone has the skills to determine the country of this site, I'd appreciate it. It seems like a well-thought-out website, with legality concerns and ethical posting rules, but I am concerned about what Tom wrote about having different rules because of being a country which has different standards than that of the US which is PSG's country of origin. It may be clear on the site, but I didn't look with the intention of that so later I will if no one has given an answer (where is Hoogle when you need him, lol). Seems like it might be Japan.

One more edit: I have sent an email to zerochan administration and will post their reply as soon as I hear back from them.
 
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Tom Mann

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Thanks for finding that page about their policies, Clare. I looked, but couldn't find it. I must say, it was a bit disappointing to see that the term, "copyright" is used only once on that entire page. :eek:

T
 

chrisix

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Oow, great tip about zero chan.

Ok, I have quite a bit of experience with making signatures.
And yes, the problem of using someone's render has crossed my minds as well.
But finding the original creator is often impossible.
I generally use use whatever I can find on the internet.
I mean, you're not selling anything, just making a signature.
However, If I find something on someone's deviant-art page,
I always message them about using it.

As long as you don't claim the works of others to be your own...
Everyone with a bit of experience in forum signatures will know you're not the one drawing the render, so you don't have to specifically mention that.


From all of the signature makers I know, this is on the clean side.
I know some who just remove watermarks etc of renders to use them.
 
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ibclare

Queen Bee
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I have not given any thought to this regarding sigs for use on forums like this, but I imagine the same rules should apply. Don't use it if you don't have permission. Find something else. Just get to practice and play more that way!
 

chrisix

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well, the problem is with signatures.
The renders which are used are usually widely spread, impossible to find the original creator.
I can say that 90%+ of renders in signatures are used without permission.
 

IamSam

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chrisix said:
I can say that 90%+ of renders in signatures are used without permission.
So do you think this is morally and ethically acceptable for you to copy others work without their permission since 90% of everyone else is doing it?

chrisix said:
As long as you don't claim the works of others to be your own...
So please explain what this statement means to you and how it applies to your signature work.
 

Paul

Former Member
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I do feel this is slightly turning into a witch hunt now, can we stop with the pointy fingers and just talk about the subject NOT THE POSTER.
Thanks shoppers.
 

ibclare

Queen Bee
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This is not the appropriate place. It is an interesting discussion and has been going on for ages now. It is one reason that we post credits for our work now. We want to be as legal and ethical as possible. On this thread it is getting a little hostile. Why not start a new thread on the subject and have a mature, mannerly discussion, not a pissing contest. Nuff said?
 

chrisix

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So do you think this is morally and ethically acceptable for you to copy others work without their permission since 90% of everyone else is doing it?
Now now, I've never said that. I am just pointing out how people deal with permissions in the general signature area, which would perhaps be a new insight to many of you.

So please explain what this statement means to you and how it applies to your signature work.
Haha, so you're still thinking I didn't make those signatures?



But, lets run through this scenario:
You've gotten a signature request on a forums.
He wants a fairly unpopular anime character in the signature.
So after an hour of searching, you finally find a usable render of the character.
But you can't find the original creator of it...
I mean, it's just for someone's forum signature.
No one is profiting from it, can't really hurt, right?
Use it or not?
 
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IamSam

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Chris, I believe Paul is right, this has turned personal for me and I truly apologize. My intent was not to address you directly, but in this I have failed.

Clare speaks of passion and this subject is passionate for me as it should be with everyone. Rationalization and ignorance of copyright infringement has lead to internet wide complacency, most of which is excusable but the flagrant should not be overlooked.

Chris, I will leave you with the last word because your statement answered my question entirely.
And since you asked I will answer..........NOT!
 

ibclare

Queen Bee
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OK, this discussion has been enlightening, including that it demonstrates the POV of older and more sensitive to copyright opinions vs. the new (apparently) rash, young approach to plagiarism as being innocence incarnate. There is no excuse for using nor necessity to use unattributed work. Yep, lots of that on the internet. But guess what, also plenty of easily credited work. Google will not always provide that, but if you go to the anime links which provide galleries and to places like deviantart and others, you will find all you need in the way of usable images, credits, and artist's rules as to how you may use and give credit for that use.

Be safe! Be ethical! Be cautious! Don't use the work of others indiscriminately unless it is for a private birthday card, poster for a party, etc. Anything that is published on the net is taking you into dangerous territory.
 
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chrisix

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Well clare, that point of view seems like a safe standpoint, instead of living on the edge (look at your location and laugh)
However, saying that there is no excuse isn't really true.
Time, ease, lack of better renders, no response from artists, no watermark is in my eyes a list of excuses for using unattributed work.
 

ibclare

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You said it chrisix. Excuses ALL. And I repeat, there is no need. Find an image unattributed, find another one that is.

As for where I live, ha ha. My edge has cliffhangers. I don't like to jump off without a hang glider! But . . . truth to tell, I only live 30 miles from a famous hang glider port in LaJolla, CA. I've never tried parachuting or bungee jumping either. Garsh, I am eating an awful lot of humble pie today, even as I mete out my Queen Bee Stinger Wisdom. All hot air balloon exhaust I guess. I will now change my location to "inside the humble pie, chomping down."
 

inkpad.t

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you really should try parachuting... it's great.. just don't do what i did and jump while the winds blowing back at you... the first time always smells some what... and you end up walking funny when you land..
 

Tom Mann

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re: Attribution, let me repeat what I said earlier in this thread:

"Also, as a friend who is a patent attorney once cautioned me, attribution (as evidence of good intention) may keep an aggrieved individual from becoming mad enough to sue you, but once they do, attribution, good intentions, lack of legal knowledge, etc. mean almost nothing when it comes to copyright issues. What matters is whether you had a license to use the work or not."

Tom M
 

ComedyLover

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my eyes will defintly burn if i read all these posts i might do it later but i guess i wont post anywhere any thing any time soon :rolleyes: :cry:
 

inkpad.t

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Don't get down... Chin up.... People are just trying to help you not fall in to the area of copyright issues...

There must be some where on the net that can give you what your looking for as far as images you can use...just keep searching...

Some of the stock sites licences are cheap enough to use the image for personal use and display... they only really start to get expensive if you want an image for a resale product...

What ever you find or pay for just keep good documentation of the licance/usage of the image and what exactly you are allowed to do with it.

Have you look at a site called FIVERR. Now some people don't like it... but its full of up and coming artists who will create your image for you for a FIVER. If you want an image of a man with a sword just ask... Take a look at the persons profile and comments by other uses to find the right one for you... I personaly have had no issues with any one on there and the quality was good.. just give a full description of what you req...

This is just an avenue you could take... but its worth a look.. i havent been there much just lately as i can do most things i need my self now... but if i remeber what ever is sent to you as an image , you have the copyright to which is part of the deal, although it might have changed by now so check it out.
 

Hoogle

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Stock photography etc also has a lot of conditions you must abide by. If you really want a good idea go to any stock image site and read there terms and conditions on the license you require for it you will find just buying an image does not give you the free right to do what you want with it. I have chosen this link as it is quite quick to getting to what you can not do with the image under licenses.

http://www.istockphoto.com/license.php
 

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