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i hope you not going to hate me


3headcat

Well-Known Member
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I was thinking about this for quite some time now but I’m generally a nice person so I never acted on this. But since today my day is a little crappy so I will let my bad side see the light of day.

Is it just me or people on this forum are a little to nice? Do you ever look on a project that one of the users put for review and think to yourself “omg this is a piece of ****!” And then either ignore the post completely because you got nothing nice to say or still post something like:” This is really awesome, great job just work on the lighting?”

Yes I understand that questions like that usually come from beginners and discouraging them is really a bad idea. People are trying their best I telling them that this piece of work suck is really, really not nice. Killing dreams and stuff.. I’m not saying that people have to be mean, but sometimes better lighting and shadows just not going to help. I’m not saying you should stop doing what you doing that photo/design/picture..just..just…delete it and try again. I never notice anyone ( including me) actually saying to a guy “this is crap. Try again. Start from scratch”

I generally think that user here are simply to nice
 

iDad

Guru
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I have to disagree, graphics is way too subjective. To really criticize one persons idea of nice and cool might be different from another. I would rather say to somebody, interesting idea or I would prefer it this way, not that's crap. For somebody to create an image. Poor quality or whatever, at least they've attempted it........ Just a thought.
 

3headcat

Well-Known Member
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I don’t this is as subjective as people think it is. Art is. Graphics? Not so much. Maybe I’m mistaken but I don’t think that lots of people here are trying to express deep emotional feeling about love hate war peace, consumptionism etc. in photo manipulations and designs. There is no way to judge that. But graphic design is different. There are rules of design that respond to our brains, compositions balance, colour balance etc. the way that our eyes move around picture. And sometimes there are broken not on purpose but simply because of lack of knowledge.

A spot on canvas could mean Despair but a bad design is a bad design. I’m not judging the person or passion of that person just the design. I don’t have a driving license but if manage to drive 100 meters and hit a tree my driving skills are still crappy. Nothing bad about that. Everyone starts from position of 0 knowledge. It’s not a bad thing. I can pat my 3 y old daughter in the shoulder for drawing a cat that looks like squiggly line. That ok she is trying. But is she will draw this squiggly line for the next 5 y and still try to tell me that how cat look like is ok to eventual point out that “No this is not a cat. You have to try again because there is no way to make this line it look like a cat now. And the only way is to bin this pic and make a new one” And I think if person is using a forum he is ready to be told that some of the work is just bad. I’m not trying to be a person who think he better and know everything. But you have to admit that we live in the word where is great work, really crappy work and everything in between. so crappy work do exist.
 

iDad

Guru
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Look at Rembrandt and then look at Picasso you decide. Both sell for big bucks which is crap?
 

chrisix

Guru
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well thing is, look back at your first photoshop projects :p
I remember making those standart things like letters out of ice etc.
looking back at them, crap
when you come further, you realise your mistakes and it's easy to see how you could have improved them at the time.
But making things in photoshop takes a lot of practice, getting to know everything.
all the different tricks you can use to make something look better.
Now many people come to the forum to learn, they are fairly new, not much experience.
It'd be quite discouraging to put one of your first projects here and get all pro's to bitch about your project.
I think it's way more usefull for them to point them to the things they have done well,
so they will keep enjoying it and continue working in ps and get better by practice.
However, this doesn't mean you can't point out things that can be improved.
But pointing out the good things, to keep seems just better, and keeps photoshop fun.
If you don't have fun with PS anymore, you're not going to improve
 

Inkz

Guru
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Where not here to shoot peoples work down, but to point them in the right direction....

Saying someones work is crap will only cause a flame war.
 

3headcat

Well-Known Member
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I still got my first design and believe me I have no idea how the hell I could think that this is ever remotely close to average. Is it just so so SO BAD. and I know everyone is like that. There is no way that you can be good since day one. And I’m really happy that people act on their passion and need to create because not all of us are trying to do.. well anything... I’m the last person that will try to discourage a young artist. I’m just saying that people should know when something is bad. How else they going to improve? I think that if we create this little safe bubble and everything will be “very cool, just need a little improvement” that not going to end up well. There are pictures that just need improvement but there are thing that are just plain bad. I’m not going to say to a new Photoshop user “you have no idea what you doing you should just stop it’s not for you” but I’m all for saying “listen dude, kudos for trying but this is bad, really bad, look try this tutorial it will definitely help because if you going to stay on this road you will end up with “comic sans and flares design” but with all of you nice people here I’m reluctant to do so bacuse I’m just don’t want to be this guy ( and I can stress this enough : I’m not trying to be a **** ;)
 

ibclare

Queen Bee
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Love that censor doncha!?!

I both agree and disagree. I agree with all the posters above. I also agree with a lot of what you say. But I think you need to get some rest, a little R&R, lol, and get back to your happy side. OK, just poking you! Sorta, there is truth in humor.

Yes, I am guilty of looking at work, scrunching up my face, and going away. Sometimes I will come back to it and make comments after taking a closer look. But yeah, some work is bad, bad, bad. And some of mine was and still is not worth mentioning. However, I refrain from ever using the word, bad. Yet I have been known to nit pick at people's designs, manipulations, etc., especially when I think of them as someone who is serious about learning Photoshop and progressing as an artist.

Besides which, bad doesn't explain what I am observing and thinking. This design needs work: the lines are crooked, the letters are off-balance, the white space is . . . blah blah blah. Directing someone to a tut is a good thing, but not getting them mad or hurt first. OK, I know what it's like to get my ego bruised. But a true artist recognizes that progress is better than perfection.

I am an amateur. But I have a good design sense and a long history of working in the fine arts (not professionally), including lots of art and photography history. When I came to the forum, one of the moderators was very encouraging to my fledgling designs. Sir Maximus always said, "Keep up the good work." I try to do the same. But to leave a pollyana-ish reply is not my way. I try to point out the good first and if I understand what is wrong, say what needs improvement or make suggestions. I think others are supportive in their comments. Yes, maybe sometimes we are too nice, but that is a personal choice.

If you post and are afraid that you won't get constructive feedback, please be sure to add that in your comments. Zeealex used to say, "be brutal." I'm not sure if she regrets that or not!
 

3headcat

Well-Known Member
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I knew a should keep my mouth shut ;)

Maybe im focusing on the end product to much and not thinking enough about the artist. But:

If I will show you guys same “not the best pretty crappy” design twice. Once it will be a random photo from the internet by unknown artist and second time I will tell you that this is mine most recent work, are your comment will be the same? Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t think so. Assuming I’m right: my thoughts about the design ( the design itself not the passion, idea, concept ,the designer etc.) are exactly the same in both situation. Do we suppose to lie and say that this is ok and use the right word, focus on positives and explains the negatives in nice and polite manner to make sure that I will not hurt someone feelings? is it not hypocrisy? I’m trying to offend the author. Do I have to find something good in every art piece? I still think that some of them can’t be fixed by better lighting etc. and should be deleted and created again. How I that a bad thing? We are not small kids that have to be protected all the time. (I’m kind of a social idiot according to my wife so sometimes I just say thing and she have to explain me why people are upset)

I think I’m digging too deep in to the topic
 
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Zeealex

Retired Forum Moderator
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Love that censor doncha!?!
If you post and are afraid that you won't get constructive feedback, please be sure to add that in your comments. Zeealex used to say, "be brutal." I'm not sure if she regrets that or not!

It depended on my mood really :p I'm up for it more now than i was originally. :)
 

ibclare

Queen Bee
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I think you are also missing the point, saying that we always have to make positive remarks if there aren't any to make. I don't think you can ever look at a design made by someone who is really trying and not find something worth a positive comment in addition to the criticism. Even if it is just the concept that has not been executed very well. If your view of things is so negative, then don't comment. We all make that choice from time to time, not to say a word.

We also don't always make complimentary remarks (ask people to elaborate on criticisms they have received). You have missed a lot of posts if you think otherwise and must have found a few that support your theory. It is an error to assume from your particular observation that there is a universal response. There is a logical flaw in your argument. That or you have a blind spot. Your theory is just bad, truly bad. LOL, in your words.

Fine, if it is your policy to shoot from the hip, do it. But don't assume that your way is the only way. It is not.
 

ibclare

Queen Bee
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It depended on my mood really :p I'm up for it more now than i was originally. :)

Zee, you are remarkable. Your development as an artist and, I hope you won't mind my saying, your growth in maturity are laudable. Tell 3headcat the kind of obliterating criticism you received from some members early on. You've survived and grown. A lot of us have.
 

Paul

Former Member
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We all have in our own personal ways.
 

Fatboy73

Guru
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There are better, more constructive ways to critique someones work than to tell them it looks like crap and to start over. If it was a professional, paid, work then maybe a buyer has the right to say that, but we're hear to encourage and teach.
I honestly a lot of times look at art and designs and have absolutely no idea what to say about it. I leave critique if there is something that can easily be fixed or if it's an area I feel I know a bit about, and if the piece is really good I will say so.

One thing I will not do is leave a comment on a piece where the poster appears to go out of their way to explain that they have only been using Photoshop for two weeks and how they're not really an artist, but they just threw this together and what does everyone think. It is quite obvious the poster HAS been using PS for longer and that they do indeed know SOMETHING about art, but are simply, purposely, looking for people to say "Oh my god that is amazing, and you've only been doing this for two weeks?" and stroke their ego. It's disingenuous and it bugs the piss outta me.
 

inkpad.t

Guru
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I truly believe in saying it as it is , in both life, work and in here... However i would not agree with slating some ones work just because YOU don't like it whether its crap or not.

How are people going progress in both life, art or design, in fact in anything.. if you tell a child he is dumb for long enough he will believe it, this destroys that child's confidence and sets them back so much it can even destroy them. All because you didn't like or agree with what they did.

The same go's in art, tell them there crap and they will stop... just think of how many people would stop doing what they are trying to achieve ?.

POSITIVE rather than NEGATIVE responses is the way to go...

ME personnel could,t give 2 hoots if all the comments were bad and i was told "this is crap". because i still see this as a positive, at least i know where i'm going wrong to put it right.

But that doesn't apply to all or everything. and at the end of the day it's only YOUR personal opinion if somethings crap.. IF YOU THINK ITS CRAP, THEN KEEP IT TO YOURSELF... UNLESS... you've been ask to state whether its crap or not.

So this forum isn't about being nice or not , its about positiveness and helping people where you can.
 

ibclare

Queen Bee
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Yes, I agree mostly with both you guys, but you that from my comments.

The one thing 3headcat said that he would probably repeat after your reply inkpad, is that graphics is different from subjective artwork in that design principles apply and so it is easier to say, that is just wrong. Well, the way I see it, design concepts are part of any art, painting, drawing, photography, digital manipulations, banners, sigs, and so on. There is objective validity in that, but their is also subjectivity in that judgement. If an artist creates a design and it is bad because of several design principles that are not practiced, as I said before, is there anything worthwhile in the attempt?

Isn't the attempt and the very fact that someone posted it positive? Of course, some are arrogant and bragging. Tell me truly, lol, that we haven't shot them down a bit. But as said before, it doesn't need to be done with malice. That is totally unproductive; it isn't even good practice for the observer to make a pat statement such as this is bad. It takes some thought to make constructively critical commentary. Like fatboy said, there are "constructive ways to critique."

Well, I'm repeating myself now. Like I said before, sleep on it for a few days cat. Let a little soft empathy reach your black heart! JK. Kind of. You can consider this constructive criticism of your viewpoint. That's as valid as a critique of artwork, as long as you threw it out for discussion. So you made a good move. I truly understand and sympathize with your POV. I also understand fatboy's comment about the members who claim to have no experience and post work as a newbie to get ego strokes. In fact, I have never really thought about that as being the case; wondered it though. I'll be on the alert for that a lot more now.
 

inkpad.t

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[QUOTEThe one thing 3headcat said that he would probably repeat after your reply inkpad, is that graphics is different from subjective artwork in that design principles apply and so it is easier to say][/QUOTE]

Sorry but i have should have made it clear that i meant in all aspects of everything, not just art and graphics. When i put YOU in big letters i don't mean to identify one person but all in general.

Didn't mean this sound like a personal snipe at anyone just an overall view that i don't think telling someone that it's crap dos anything positive to the person posting his or her art work.

Sorry if the last post look that way.
 

Paul

Former Member
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I generally stay away from critiques BUT if the image supplied is obviously in need of helpful comments then i will - EG images that get posted looking way to dark i would say, 'boost the lighting in my opinion' or something like that.
My biggest piss ripper is the ' i just threw this together' yeah right, i have used that my self in sarcastic replies in the past, but some seem to think it gains brownie points?
 

iDad

Guru
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What's wrong with brownies?:mrgreen:
Yeah that bugs me to! But it is what it is and it ain't nuttin till someone says so!
 

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