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3D Floating Spheres


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Reflections are always tricky.
On 3D objects like in my composite I found it almost impossible to get them right. It's done with Photoshop 3D tools.
Loading the texture of the BG to the sphere is not a problem, but to adjust the UV features, there is a lot of guesswork involved.
But maybe the PS 3D functions are limited, though how do I know if I can do better? I'm just a newbie with 3D.

Any comments or suggestions from 3D gurus are very welcome.

Floating Spheres 1700.jpg
 

Helios

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I'm not a 3D guru, but if I might make a couple of spatial observations:
The realism might be improved by reflecting the spheres in each other, as they would in real life. I realise this probably makes everything a million times more complicated though!

The furthest sphere on the right wouldn't be reflecting the pictures in that way at that angle - it's a bit difficult to describe how it should be changed though. I can mock up a sketch later if that might help?

Nice job so far other than that. :)


Edit: Or just do what MrT says below. Yeah, that. :p
 
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MrToM

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Ah.....you seem to have fallen into the 3D trap!

What you've done is fine, nothing wrong with it....as a 'Scene' its great....but...

...you've misunderstood what 3D is all about, and that's perfectly acceptable.....anyone starting out in 3D work does it so at least you're on the right track.

What you've done here is to 'think' that YOU need to apply the 'reflections' to the objects in the 'Scene'.

This is the trap......you don't need to at all!

The whole idea behind 3D, (although on a limited basis with PS), is this...

1. Set the 'Scene'...meaning add your objects, position them and animate them if needed. You may also add an 'Environment' or use an IBL system to fake one....which is the default for PS....and probably used in 99% of all 3D.

2. Create your object 'Materials'...meaning, create a material that has the same properties as the object would have in the real world....so reflective things need to have a 'reflection' property. This is where PS falls down a bit compared to mainstream 3D software....the options for material creation is very limited by comparison but still pretty good.....for example you cannot set the IOR value for say a transparent material.....which in other 3D software can be set to 'float' glass....lead crystal glass, diamond, acrylic...etc etc.

3. Lighting. Get the right lights in the right position. If its an 'outside' scene then obviously just one big light to represent the sun is all you would need. Indoor scenes would mean replicating 'Blondes', 'Redheads', softboxes, candles, incandescent 60W bulbs....even led's! Get the lighting as close to a real world scenario as possible....appropriate to your scene of course.

4. Camera Position. Just as in photography the framing of the image is just as important. the advantage with 3D of course is that you can not only move the camera if the shot doesn't look right but you can reorganise the objects in the scene to get things just as you need them.....something you may not be able to do in the real world...especially with 'action' photography.

The end result of all this is that for your example you need to create the right 'material' for the spheres....reflective in other words. THEY will then reflect their environment depending on the other objects around them.....the items on the groundplane in your case.

When 'rendered' thats when the magic happens.....the 'rendering' process takes a while as its calculating exactly how objects should appear according to those items mentioned above.....done by emitting 'rays' from the camera to many many points on each object and calculating what you should see at that point....it traces along every point on every object which is why the process is called 'Ray Tracing'. There are other processes but this method is deemed the starting point.

So in a nutshell, change the materials of those spheres to something reflective, render, light your pipe, sit back and admire your handy-work.

Sorry that's a bit long, (and it's only a fraction of the tip of the iceberg too!), but 3D is just a tad more involved than laying down pixels on a canvas.

Let me know if a 'scene' would help you...I'll try and throw something together to explain my ramblings.

Regards.
MrToM.

Not a brilliant example but...

3D_Spheres_MT_01.jpg
 
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Helios MrToM
Well thank you guys for the fast replies.

You spotted that right Helios. The sphere on the right side is the one I had the biggest problem. The reflection is all wrong.

Thanks a million MrTom for your very good explanation. I actually knew that I choose a wrong way and fell into the "trap". Haha.
I nearly had a nervous breakdown to finish the image as it is now. I'll try this method out soon and post an update.
Thanks again, you made my day!
 

MrToM

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No worries...

All you should need to do is select the preset 'Chrome' material and apply it to the spheres.....I think it will automatically remove what you have there now....but don't quote me on that.

Don't forget about the 'Environment' though.....that sphere on the right will turn out as my example if it has 'nothing' to reflect.....its too far forward to reflect whats under it so it will need something in front of it....you could add more objects instead of an 'environment'.....they won't be visible in the scene, which you don't want anyway, but will be visible in the reflections.

As always...many ways.

Good luck.

Regards.
MrToM.
 

Eggy

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I've been messing around with 3D since installing CC 2015.
I did follow Chris' thread on reflections and because this was/is one of my problems.
So despite having a splitting migraine I had a go at it with an existing picture:

Reflection.jpg

Is this the right way?
I'll hear the answer tomorrow, now I'm gonna take a pill and stop staring at my screen.
 

MrToM

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...I did follow Chris' thread on reflections...
Not sure which thread that is, (do you have a link to it?), but if you want my thoughts then see if this helps. (Probably not but you're getting them anyway...:biglaff:)

floating-spheres-reflection_MT_01.jpg

Sorry its just an image but when it comes to 3D, images are probably best for those less 'specific' questions.

Of course if you do have any 'specific' questions then by all means ask....only too happy to explain....but in small chunks....it makes it much easier. :thumbsup:

Regards.
MrToM.
 
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Ah.....you seem to have fallen into the 3D trap!


Let me know if a 'scene' would help you...I'll try and throw something together to explain my ramblings.

Regards.
MrToM.

Not a brilliant example but...

View attachment 60969


A 'scene' would help me a lot MrTom. I would appreciate it.
Whatever I tried, the checkered pattern was still visible after rendering. :banghead:
A few screenshots of your settings would be great.
 

MrToM

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Right.....

I've done a scene similar to your example image....not perfect but hopefully it shows the principle of adding objects to a 'scene', applying materials and lighting and then rendering.

Its taken around 3 hours to do mainly because PS decided to start randomly deleting objects from the scene...especially when trying to add a new one.

No idea why this was but needless to say I had to do a lot of backtracking and then once back at a 'good' position had to really treat PS with kid gloves....talk about treading on egg-shells!

So....very carefully I've got a scene for you but before I upload it I wanted to render the result for comparison with your original....

....and there in lies a problem....its going to take over an hour to render!

So...nothing to declare at the moment but I'll follow this up later (or tomorrow) with the PSD file and the images used for the objects and the IBL all wrapped up in one lovely bundle of zip-ness.

Here is a teaser I managed to get out but its not the best....

3D_Spheres_small_MT_02.png

I'll be back.

Oh yeah, nearly forgot....I found out why the checker pattern is still visible....I'll explain when I upload the files.

Regards.
MrToM.
 

MrToM

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OK...

See how you get on with this...

3D_Spheres_Large_MT_02.jpg


Its an 80MB PSD with an internal studio lighting HDR IBL image and your original artwork as posted here on PSG.

From what I can gather the HDR IBL image is included in the PSD file which makes it artificially huge but in case it isn't I've included it in the zip file.

The file is the same dimensions as your example image which to be honest is a little large for 3D in PS which results in very long render times. I've looked into trying to reduce this but the general concensus seems to be that PS just isn't cut out to do 3D....period.

Whilst I agree with that, what it is good for is cutting your teeth on, but you really need to limit yourself as to image dimensions and the amount of geometry / lighting / maps etc etc you use in each scene....PS just isn't capable of anything more complex than a simple scene.....this one isn't complex by any stretch of the imagination and yet PS is struggling with it.

That said, have fun with it, experiment with it and of course if you have any questions then please do ask....its not easy to navigate 3D in the first place but Adobe have yet again managed to make it even more complex than is necessary......which brings me on to the subject of that checker pattern!

The preset 'Chrome Metal' material I've applied to the spheres needs to have the 'Environment' added to it.....normally the material would reflect the 'Environment' whatever that may be....a simple colour or an IBL image....but...

The way PS does it is to have a map of whatever 'Environment' you want.....starry sky, blue sky, indoors, whatever.....it can be just a colour if you want (although this doesn't good). The default for that material is to have that checker pattern as the 'Environment' image....REGARDLESS of what the actual environment is. I guess in one way it means you can light the scene with an IBL image but have a totally different 'environment' reflected in anything shiny....why I don't know as this would never happen 'for real'...??

Anyway.....if you look at the above image you'll see 'two' sets of lights with umbrella reflectors on them.....but they do not look the same....one set is the 'reflection' from the IBL image which is actually lighting the scene....the other set is this 'Environment' image that replaced the checker pattern.

I would have said that these two should align exactly....why wouldn't they? Unfortunately I've not found a way to synchronise the two images, and I'm not very hopeful it can actually be done, so the result isn't perfect but still...

If you have difficulty opening or working with the PSD then I can always do a more simple one but by the very nature of 3D they will be big files.

For comparison this one is without IBL but has an 'Infinite' light source instead.

3D_Spheres_Large_MT_03.jpg


PSG isn't accepting a 24MB zip file although its within the limits so it will have to be Mediafire...
http://www.mediafire.com/download/np1xf9j92k2ihd0/3D+Spheres+4+CD+PSG.zip

Regards.
MrToM.
 
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MrToM
Thanks again for work and your elaborated explanation on this problem.

The spheres look great and shiny like real chrome, but...I hate the reflections of the umbrella reflectors, though they are actually correct.
I look into your PSG file now. Couldn't download it during the day (server problems).
In any case I keep you updated about my efforts.
 

Paul

Former Member
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Great job Chris, really getting into this 3D stuff now aren't you?:thumbsup:
 
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Thanks for your comment Paul...very much appreciated.
Well, it's still "a book with seven seals", as a German proverb says.
But I try to get my very best from PS 3D.
 
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@MrToM
Thanks again for work and your elaborated explanation on this problem.

The spheres look great and shiny like real chrome, but...I hate the reflections of the umbrella reflectors, though they are actually correct.
I look into your PSG file now. Couldn't download it during the day (server problems).
In any case I keep you updated about my efforts.



Here is my new version. Better? I'm not so sure.

Kugel3neu render1700.jpg
 

Eggy

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I did not like the 'umbrella's' too Chris and I like this better.
Just a thought, make the shadows of the spheres harder?
 
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Thanks for the feedback and your suggestion Eggy.
You're right, the shadows are a bit too soft.
 

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