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Color profiles, color management, and proof colors: all my colors are wrong.


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I’m shooting with a Nikon D610, and a Nikkor 50mm f/1.8. I shoot in RAW in the Adobe RGB (1998) color space (as opposed to sRGB).
I import my photos through Lightroom, and from there open them in Photoshop CS6, and edit them.

In the past, I’ve had the issue of my edited images that look good on my computer (MacBook Pro), once uploaded to the web, whether it be Flickr, Twitter, Tumblr or even just emailed to my phone (iPhone 6), look awful.
I read up some on the issue before deciding to post it here, and came to understand (correct me if I’m wrong) that iOS system is just not color managed. That would make sense, as I saved a PSD without embedding ProPhoto RGB, and when opened, the file looked the same way it did when I looked at it on my phone.

That’s not really the issue though, my issue is after realizing the difference in photo from MacBook to iPhone, I’m worried that I’m not editing my pictures properly, so they are displaying incorrectly on other people’s computers.

By default, when I open an image in Photoshop and go to “view->proof setup” it is selected at “Working CMYK”. I changed that to “sRGB” and the picture changed and looked awful, the same way it looks on my phone.
I’m not sure if these screenshots will show up the way they do on my computer, but I figured it’s better to include them and try and make someone else’s job easier than not include them at all.

CMYK Screenshot:
Screen Shot 2014-12-04 at 3.25.02 PM.png
sRGB Screenshot:
Screen Shot 2014-12-04 at 3.24.17 PM.png

From there, I knew my issue was the color profile, but I had no idea how to fix it. So I tried opening up the original image.
I then went to “view->proof setup->custom->Adobe RGB (1998)” with “preserve RGB numbers” checked and the image looked closer to the way I saw it straight out of the camera, but darker, unsaturated, and more contrast.
I tried it with the same image that I had edited, it made it look the way it did on my phone; greenish, dark, and bland.
I then tried switching the unedited version to “Web-Standard sRGB” and it didn’t work that way for either image, the edited or the unedited.

The first photo on the left is the original RAW image, opened directly into Photoshop, under Photoshop-default Working CMYK color profile, the other two are the same image, just with different color profiles selected as described above.

Fourm.png

My question is, am I editing my pictures wrong? Should I be editing in a different color setting? Do I have to begin opening my images up with a color profile like Adobe RGB or sRGB and go from there? Because that seems like an awful lot more work than it should be.
Other people don't seem to have this issue, as I can go onto other people's Flickr pages and see images on my computer that look exactly the same as they did on my phone, and vice versa. That is true for any other photo-sharing website. I'm just confused as to what to do from here.

I want my images to look the same on my computer as they do on my phone and someone else’s computer and their buddy’s phone, too! Obviously, within reason, because every device is different, and not every monitor is calibrated and things, but I’d like them to look relatively the same.

I know this is a lot longer than most people would like to read, but I would greatly appreciate any help I can get.
Thank you in advance.
 
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ALB68

Dear Departed Guru and PSG Staff Member
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Hi, Madison
Welcome to the forum.
You should be shooting in sRGB, Color Settings should be sRGB, Your monitor should be calibrated. Understand what soft proofing does, it allows you see a representation of how your image is going to look with any of the many devices,,that's all,,nothing else. If you would like to post a screenshot of your Color Settings there may be some other corrections that may be needed. We have experts here that can help you further with this issue.
 
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Are you saying that if I just switch my color space on my camera to sRGB, and then uncheck "proof colors" in Photoshop, until I'm ready to see what it would look like on the web, I shouldn't have an issue with the color difference?
I was under the impression that because I am shooting RAW, that the color space selected in-camera did not affect my images, as I could switch the color space in Adobe Camera Raw if needed.

I'm still a little lost on what the actual issue is.

Unfortunately, I can't afford software to calibrate my monitor at the moment, but it's next on my list. Will it be detrimental that I can't do that right at this moment?

What color settings would assist with determining if any other corrections are needed? I'm more than willing to provide those if possible.

If you don't mind me asking, what is the difference between the Adobe RGB (1998) and the sRGB that causes such a difference in the way I shoot my images?
Why does shooting in Adobe RGB cause a color issue, and (if I'm understanding correctly) sRGB does not?

Thank you so much for your help so far, I appreciate it immensely.
 
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Tom Mann

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I am really pressed for time at the moment, but let me make a couple of quick comments:
Larry - The OP stated that he shoots in RAW. Therefore it makes ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE what color space he selects in his camera. That setting only affects the in-camera JPG. The conversion from his NEF file to a specific color space is done in his raw converter, ie, LR, in his case. He could convert his RAW data to any reasonable color space, but for the best quality in really difficult cases, he should use ProFoto (16 bit), NOT sRGB. The only advantage to sRGB during processing is that it is more idiot proof: Working in ProPhoto, you've got to remember to do a final conversion to sRGB. If you forget it, your pix will look awful to most people. If you work in sRGB, there's nothing to remember -- you are already in the most widely accepted space.

@OP - For the moment, just forget about softproofing. More later.

Tom M
 

ALB68

Dear Departed Guru and PSG Staff Member
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Are you saying that if I just switch my color space on my camera to sRGB, and then uncheck "proof colors" in Photoshop, until I'm ready to see what it would look like on the web, I shouldn't have an issue with the color difference?
I was under the impression that because I am shooting RAW, that the color space selected in-camera did not affect my images, as I could switch the color space in Adobe Camera Raw if needed.

I'm still a little lost on what the actual issue is.

Unfortunately, I can't afford software to calibrate my monitor at the moment, but it's next on my list. Will it be detrimental that I can't do that right at this moment?

What color settings would assist with determining if any other corrections are needed? I'm more than willing to provide those if possible.

If you don't mind me asking, what is the difference between the Adobe RGB (1998) and the sRGB that causes such a difference in the way I shoot my images?
Why does shooting in Adobe RGB cause a color issue, and (if I'm understanding correctly) sRGB does not?

Thank you so much for your help so far, I appreciate it immensely.

Madison,
Tom Mann is pretty much our expert here on color management and workflow, and he has replied and will reply with more useful information. This is a topic that has been discussed here many times and lots of info is available.
Since you are shooting photos in RAW a good deal of latitude is inherent as Tom states.
You did not say what type of computer your using..Windows or Mac. Please let us know that please.

If you do not have a calibrated monitor all bets are off. Your overall object here is for your output, whether to internet or print, to look the same as what it looks like on your screen. If your system monitor is not calibrated, you will not achieve the objective.
If your OS is Windows, it has a built in monitor calibration that you can run. Just search for that on your system and it will show up. There are better ways to do this but if funds are limited then this beats nothing.

In the meantime..watch this video from Adobe. Maybe you will gain some insight into this.
http://tv.adobe.com/watch/learn-photoshop-cc/color-settings-in-photoshop-cc/
 
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Tom Mann-
Considering you are the expert on this, I appreciate your input.

ALB68-
As stated in my original post, I am using a MacBook Pro.
I found out today that I will have the opportunity to calibrate my monitor using software at my school, so that won't be an issue anymore.

Here are my color settings, by default:
Screen Shot 2014-12-05 at 12.51.24 PM.png
Screen Shot 2014-12-05 at 1.01.58 PM.png

Now, after watching that video, and looking at the dialog boxes, I came across this one under "Convert to Profile".
Screen Shot 2014-12-05 at 1.05.02 PM.png

I left those settings, and pressed okay, just to see what it would do.
The result was one layer that looked just like the image I had seen when it was profiled with ProPhoto.

Is my solution to just convert my final images to sRGB this way before uploading them to the web or transferring them to my phone?
 

Tom Mann

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Sorry, guys, but my responses are going to have to come in small bits and pieces because it's the end of the fall semester and I have other pressing responsibilities. Don't worry, tho, I'll get bck to you.

#1:
One thing that I did want to immediately comment on is Larry's statement, "If you do not have a calibrated monitor all bets are off." ... Well, sort of, but one can still make a lot of progress even without a hardware calibrated monitor & video system. One can think of the process of implementing a full color-managed workflow in two steps.

The first goal is to get an image to look more or less the same on your own system no matter what (common) color space it happens to be in. This doesn't directly involve monitor quality or calibration since you are always comparing images on the same monitor. This part of the process mostly involves recognition of the importance of using only ICC-compliant software for your work, and learning how to do color space conversions properly (eg, "converting", not "assigning" profiles, etc.).

Once the above is in place, the second goal is to produce output in a way so that everyone else sees more or less the same colors and brightness that you do. There are two parts to this. The first is really easy: Anything for the general public should go out as an sRGB file. Period. End of story. Doing this ensures that pretty much no matter what software Mr. John Q. Public uses on his system to view your images, they will look the almost exactly the same.

The second part needed to get "them" to see what you see is much more difficult because you have absolutely no control over the hardware (particularly, the monitor and its settings) Mr. Public has in front of him. This is where having a hardware calibrated system becomes important. Since you don't have control over other people's monitors, the best you can do is make sure your monitor complies with color standards, and then hope everyone else's monitors are reasonably close to the same standards. At minimum, it puts your viewing experience in the "middle of the pack" when it comes to how everyone else sees photos.

#2:

OP: "I was under the impression that because I am shooting RAW, that the color space selected in-camera did not affect my images, as I could switch the color space in Adobe Camera Raw if needed."

That's absolutely correct, but to get everyone else to see what you see, your final output has to be in sRGB. So, if you happen to like working in something other than sRGB (eg, you have set ProPhoto to be your working color space), you absolutely must do a final conversion to sRGB before you send your images on their way, and you have to do this correctly.

#3:

OP: "If you don't mind me asking, what is the difference between the Adobe RGB (1998) and the sRGB that causes such a difference in the way I shoot my images?"

(a) As I pointed out earlier, there is absolutely no difference between setting one or the other in-camera assuming you are shooting and processing RAW files; and,

(b) Even if you go through ACR and select some working color space other than sRGB, in a perfect world, all your viewers would be using only fully ICC-compliant software to view your images, so they shouldn't see any difference, either. Unfortunately, there is a lot of software still in use that is not ICC compliant. The situation is getting much better, but a lot of potential viewers are using older software that didn't have a clue what to do when it ran into an image in anything except sRGB.

The difference between ICC-compliant and non-compliant software is that ICC-compliant software converts the RGB numbers in your file to standardized RGB numbers to be sent to your video system. The conversion is different depending on the color space of the original, but if fully ICC-compliant, it should always result in the same final numbers no matter what the original color space.

Non ICC-compliant software does not perform this step. Instead, it simply sends the numbers in your file directly to your video system without any conversion. The only case in which this is correct is if the original is sRGB. In every other case, non-compliant software gets this wrong. That's the cause of the difference.

More later,

Tom
 

ALB68

Dear Departed Guru and PSG Staff Member
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Tom Mann-
Considering you are the expert on this, I appreciate your input.

ALB68-
As stated in my original post, I am using a MacBook Pro.
I found out today that I will have the opportunity to calibrate my monitor using software at my school, so that won't be an issue anymore.

Here are my color settings, by default:
View attachment 51177
View attachment 51178

Now, after watching that video, and looking at the dialog boxes, I came across this one under "Convert to Profile".
View attachment 51179

I left those settings, and pressed okay, just to see what it would do.
The result was one layer that looked just like the image I had seen when it was profiled with ProPhoto.

Is my solution to just convert my final images to sRGB this way before uploading them to the web or transferring them to my phone?

Yes..convert to sRGB. If your going to the internet just perform File/Save for Web and be sure Convert to RGB. You can save it as a GIF,PNG or JPG from that. Otherwise, from within Photoshop Edit/Convert to Profile. Even if your going to print it your OK because your printer is going to make a conversion to CMYK anyway internally.
Your settings above look fine.

You might want to look at this article about Rendering Intent and Black Point Compensation just FYI
 
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Tom Mann-

I understand completely about the fall semester. In between posts I'm cramming for finals myself!
I really appreciate you taking the time to reply.

#1.
Awesome. I figured out the conversion part on my own, which is a step in the right direction.
The "middle of the pack" analogy makes sense to me. I hadn't really understood the point of calibrating my monitor when it wouldn't guarantee anything until now.

#2.
Okay, so I've found one way to convert the color profile to sRGB, but I don't know if it's the "correct" way. What is the correct way you're talking about? Is it the edit->convert to profile? Or is there some other magic method I have yet to discover?

#3.
Thank you so much for explaining the difference here. I finally understand the issue more in depth and now am able to understand the issue.
Originally I thought I was changing the color profile through the view->proof setup, but now that I understand what I was actually doing (viewing it the way it would be seen on a device that is profiled to sRGB or what have you) I understand that I was completely incorrect, and am very eager to learn how to correct my initial mistake.

Larry-

Thank you so much for all your input and your keeping up with this thread. I'm actually very interested in that article you mentioned, but I don't see anything linked there in your post.
If you'd like to add it in, I'd be more than willing to take a look at it.

Thank you both, again.
 

ALB68

Dear Departed Guru and PSG Staff Member
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Tom Mann-

I understand completely about the fall semester. In between posts I'm cramming for finals myself!
I really appreciate you taking the time to reply.

#1.
Awesome. I figured out the conversion part on my own, which is a step in the right direction.
The "middle of the pack" analogy makes sense to me. I hadn't really understood the point of calibrating my monitor when it wouldn't guarantee anything until now.

#2.
Okay, so I've found one way to convert the color profile to sRGB, but I don't know if it's the "correct" way. What is the correct way you're talking about? Is it the edit->convert to profile? Or is there some other magic method I have yet to discover?

#3.
Thank you so much for explaining the difference here. I finally understand the issue more in depth and now am able to understand the issue.
Originally I thought I was changing the color profile through the view->proof setup, but now that I understand what I was actually doing (viewing it the way it would be seen on a device that is profiled to sRGB or what have you) I understand that I was completely incorrect, and am very eager to learn how to correct my initial mistake.

Larry-

Thank you so much for all your input and your keeping up with this thread. I'm actually very interested in that article you mentioned, but I don't see anything linked there in your post.
If you'd like to add it in, I'd be more than willing to take a look at it.

Thank you both, again.

So, it sounds as if you have learned a lot. Great :thumbsup:,
Please forgive me for being remiss in posting the link I had for you. Sometimes when trying to fulfill my moderator duties I miss things. I tend to skim posts and not be thorough in my reading. However, here is the article I had in mind on softproofing,black point compensation, rendering intent etc. Good luck on your exams!
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/soft-proofing.htm
 

Tom Mann

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I'm glad you liked my analogy, Madison.

BTW, the view/proof colors (and then using "proof setup" to select the desired output color space) is most used to try to get an idea of how a CMYK print of your image should look. There are practically an infinite variety of CMYK output profiles. In principle, there should be one for each CMYK / offset press depending on the exact paper used, the pressure on the rollers, inkset, ink feed rates, and other setup variables, and a good quality, pro print shop should supply the profile for their particular setup to designers. Proof colors also can be used to detect colors that are out of gamut between different working color spaces, but this is more easily done using the more easily seen OOG warning.

HTH,

Tom
 

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