How to improve freelance.

[sprucemagoo1]

Here is your chance to have a say on what happens!

There have been a few issues with the how people have been asking for jobs, and like wise about the people trying to do the jobs.

Changes suggested by both moderators and us, with the agreement of all staff and which have proper guidelines for requests, will be set so that we are all on the same page. So don't stay quiet and then moan if you don't like it when it happens. This is like politics, it effects us all!

 

[sprucemagoo1]

I'll start it off then. Hows about a Photoshop Gurus watermark that shows on all images in the paid section automatically.

They can then be shown straight away, and the amount of peoples work covered by the watermark would be the same across the board. The piece of work chosen by the OP can be given the work without the mark by staff when the artist has notified us they have received payment.

This way everything is transparent, fair, and everyone would know when it is over.

 

[Hoogle]

I am sure some people will rage at some of my suggestions that we are discussing and trust me we have been talking about this for a while now and have about 10 pages of posts in the staff room for improving freelance. As you can imagine re writing the freelance rules and guidelines is a big job but will also require normal sections posts requests etc guidelines written to.

I have also been toying with the idea of we make the watermark and every post made needs to display it. Lets be honest a lot of you try to get away with minimal wm as you feel it ruins the design. ANd I enjoy saving your images and proving how easy it is to remove poor watermarking. What you may not realise is people come here get watermarked images then post on other sites to have water marks removed. If you can remove it then so can other photoshoppers.

I have also had the idea of a closing date on entries set by the OP where no images are approved until that time. This stops people from copying other members ideas and working on that. It is sad to say this but this is happening a lot in freelance and regular forum.

We are trying to fix the whole forum on requests freelance set minimum pricing etc BUt I promise you now not everyone will be happy. so the more you put input the better it will be.

Also if this starts to go in circles and off topic accussing people of doing things then the posts will be deleted. Keep this constructive and on an idea only subject not criticising staff other members ops etc.

 

[Steve]

PSG is a vBulletin forum and as such we deal within the constraints of what we can do in vBulletin.
With that said we don't have the ability to add a Photoshop Gurus watermark that shows on all images in the paid section automatically, it's just not possible.
Like Hoogle said the staff here has been discussing ways to improve Freelance but there no simple solution.

From one of my posts in the staff forum:

In a perfect world everyone:
Reads the client rules
Reads the freelance member rules
Watermarks their image to PROTECT THEIR IMAGE
Posts everything on the forum

Well nobody reads the rules and if they do many don't abide by them.

I don't know how to get around these problems.
People get pissed if we don't approve their images quickly, or if we tell them they're not qualified to post, or if we quote the rules for members or for a client.

If we want to improve Freelance we're going to have to deal with this nonsense every day.

We're very much aware of the issue Chad

 

[dv8_fx]

The Instructions for posting a freelance Job guidelines are presently , by itself , clear-cut. Same goes with the Rules for Freelancers.

Its just that clients do not follow posting requirement or would rather deal with freelancers via PM or email. Some of you do not agree with this "cloak and dagger" activity.

Then there are the yet to qualify members who participate. These we scan and block ASAP once we're online.

Watermark? Obviously, some members don't get the rational behind it or fail to do it properly . To have a standardized, PSG WM may not be a good idea. Anyone can download and maliciously use it. Unless its just an overlay of lines or "watermark" text.

But these things can be properly done by all . Those who can't do it right can just follow the examples of properly done watermark images by other members. The main goal is to protect the main image contents from being stolen.

As for submissions awaiting approval, (even via report button) MODS can't be here all the time. Tho we try to be. I try to be online even if I have to be doing something else or in-between appointments at a cybercafe. We simply can't be there at all hours. But the way I see it across the boards, your images are approved with a delay of 1 to 3 hours....

 

[Paul]

Rules are rules people, just follow them - the responsibility is on you as a member to do the right thing.

 

[dv8_fx]

Sums it up.....

 

[Paul]

How about 'freezing' accounts of members who fail to post finished/completed posts?

 

[dv8_fx]

Threads with submission activity would be no problem to tell who completed it. Then again, sometimes nothing is said whether completed and who was Chosen One.

But for those works done behind the scene and participants (OP & ChosenOne) unknown?

 

[Paul]

I mean in hindsight, repeat offenders could have accounts frozen.

 

[Fatboy73]

My opinion is that every job poster has different preferences as to how they would like to go about finding the right person to do the work for them. My concern with a one method fits all approach is that it will alienate job posters and they will just go elsewhere because they don't have to jump through so many hoops.

Some job posters don't wish to have their project posted openly for many different legitimate reasons, some don't care. Some project are simply too big and would require each potential to post multiple images which of course takes up the limited space we each have to directly upload images.

My two cents is to have different methods of posting work for hire.

1. Make available a list of qualified freelancers with links to either a small on site portfolio or larger off site ones. Let the poster be free to look through, and contact the freelancer(s) of their choosing. No having to go through all of the rigamarole, and person can be discreet if they so choose. Saves the site from having to micro-manage appropriate requests.

2. Contest style. Pretty much follows what we have been doing, but with the addition of aforementioned, approved, ideas.
Basically Job poster states description of what they want and any source material needed. Potentials would then complete
project(s) to the best of their ability and post in the original thread.
I like Hoogles idea of of an agreed upon end date when all the images would be approved at once to prevent idea stealing.
I also like Chads' idea of a standard site watermark being implemented.

This approach would give the people without a decent portfolio a chance to work on their skill and build one.
It also gives job posters the option to have multiple versions done of their project to pick from if they want to go that direction.

I'm not sure if a minimum price is necessary, I think the price sorts itself out. Meaning that if a job poster wants to offer $5.00 for a skilled, time consuming job, I sure as heck am not going to bite and many others wouldn't either. The OP is either not going to get a response at all, or he'll get one from an individual for whom either $5 is legitimate offer or from someone who wants the experience and doesn't care about the money. Either way the OP is getting exactly what they paid for.

Well, I've rambled on for long enough, so I'll be quiet now. That's my two cents, spend it how you like.

 

[sprucemagoo1]

PSG is a vBulletin forum and as such we deal within the constraints of what we can do in vBulletin.
With that said we don't have the ability to add a Photoshop Gurus watermark that shows on all images in the paid section automatically, it's just not possible.
Like Hoogle said the staff here has been discussing ways to improve Freelance but there no simple solution.

From one of my posts in the staff forum:

In a perfect world everyone:
Reads the client rules
Reads the freelance member rules
Watermarks their image to PROTECT THEIR IMAGE
Posts everything on the forum

Well nobody reads the rules and if they do many don't abide by them.

I don't know how to get around these problems.
People get pissed if we don't approve their images quickly, or if we tell them they're not qualified to post, or if we quote the rules for members or for a client.

If we want to improve Freelance we're going to have to deal with this nonsense every day.

We're very much aware of the issue Chad

I didn't start this thread trying to have a go at staff, as it was staff who suggested this thread was started.

This has been happening a lot lately and I think we need to revise some of the rules here to make it more efficient.

A few weeks back the staff have started putting there heads together to see how we can improve freelance here all together.

Unfortunately for some reason or other we have not been on all at the same time to discuss it further.

Maybe 1 of you would like to start a thread with your suggestions and you can all contribute so it is not just the staff here guessing what you want and what requesters want.

Work together and it will be more efficient leave it just to staff to do then it may not be how you like it.

1 of you start a thread and dont take this thread into a long discussion. Your input is needed and now that I am back I will be looking at making a lot of changes with the agreement of all staff and have proper guidelines for requests set so that we are all on the same page.

I think the questions have to be asked, is the Freelance section of the forum more trouble than it is worth?
Maybe a minimum charge, and Photoshop Gurus taking a cut, so Gurus can pay for the add-ons required to do things like automatic WMs.

 

[dv8_fx]

When the subject of setting up freelance first came up in the Original PSGurus Forum years ago, it was deemed a PLUS for the forum .

BUT we felt that the human factor would be cause for confusion, misinterpretation and friction among members or between members and site admins/Mods. These may have bring about negative impression to visitors and newbies in the forum.

That said and as I mentioned, it is a matter of everyone reading, understanding and adhering to the BASIC forum freelance (or freebie request) guidelines.

By doing so, I'm not saying it will be smooth sailing. New situations are bound to pop up. These can or are to be handled on a case to case basis. If need be, solutions or addendum is made into the existing guidelines.

So far, the freelance problems involve Watermarking, clarity of job description and pricing, and procedure by which the job is fulfilled - be it via forum thread or private PM/email. Anything else boils down to member's awareness , interpretation and adherence to the basic guidelines set in place.

 

[Paul]

Why not get rid of the 'pm' option and make it all forum board based, that way there are no grey areas?:mrgreen:

 

[dv8_fx]

That's an issue that we are deliberating.

In other freelance job sites, this is the norm - Job Order via private bidding. Bear in mind, these involve real world , corporate/industrial design requests with real professional price quotes.

But as a Help and Discussion forum, should this be the case? for a $5 / 10$ logo ..... or an image splice of a teen's photo next to Mickey Mouse . (may explain why some of the jobs are in private... lol )

Some of those qualified for freelance members may be budding designers who just wants to earn a bit. Nothing wrong with that.... But I feel it would be great to keep tabs of their freelance activity for their proper design guidance.


Freelancer's views on the above issue is much appreciated............

 

[dv8_fx]

take this an example...

http://www.photoshopgurus.com/forum...e-service-section/40609-flyer-recreation.html


There's a lot of freelance request threads like this - with nothing to indicate whether the job was fulfilled, who got it, what image was created .

Some may feel it's a let down because they were not here at the time and someone may have beaten them to it. Such is the nature of competition.... you snooze, you loose.... lol....

But the question and gripe may arise whether a QUALIFIED FREELANCER got the job.


I agree with Fatboy that some OPs may have legitimate reasons for doing jobs off-site or wouldnt want to upload an image due to privacy concerns. In which case, we may have to allow this.

But what about those without a job description or in this case, a mentioned product?

 

[ibclare]

At this very time, we have written revisions addressing all these issues. We are discussing them. We have been discussing them for weeks if not months, lol. One of the things the revision to the Rules for Freelancers does is to clearly outline the points. I think it will be a lot easier to read.

It's great to have all this input. It's an ongoing process really. Once we have satisfactorily created guidelines that seem workable and address the problems, we may have to fine tune, update, change . . . And continue to take suggestions.

I hope we can implement the revised rules very soon.

 

[Steve]

I didn't start this thread trying to have a go at staff, as it was staff who suggested this thread was started.

I never thought that Chad.
The staff has had endless discussion on the matter and I wanted to share some of the frustration we're having with this too.
At the end of the day vBulletin is forum software and not setup to do what we wish we could do.

We have rules for clients and freelancers along with an "Announcement" on the top of the page but we can't redirect people to read them.
We can have a mandatory standardized watermark but we can't make anyone use it.

We can moderate every post, and that will shut down the section because there will be so much delay.
All we can do is react to what gets posted and continue to moderate all images.

If you guys come up with any ideas we haven't thought of or tried I'm open to all ideas.

 

[ibclare]

Here are my thoughts on the discussion so far:

A PSG Watermark
Not a bad idea IMO. But it would have to be one that was distributed for use, since it can't be automatic. It would also have to be in multiple forms as different designs may require alteration in the opacity of the WM. I like the idea but seems like it would be awkward to implement. On the other hand, if someone wants to design an all-purpose WM and post it showing it in use on a couple variations, it would be interesting to discuss more.

Agreed upon end date
This is likely to not be a hit with the clients as most of them are eager to see what's being done, sooner rather than later.

Private contact of a PSG freelancer
Not a bad idea, but I think it counters the purpose of the forum and sharing our work with others. I'm sure some pvt. contact happens based on clients observing past work, then contacting a member. Oddly enough, lately there have been a lot of jobs in which final images were not posted by the person who took the job. In fact, no images posted at all. It's too bad for a couple of reasons. It hides your work from prospective clients choosing you. It could serve as an inspiration to other members of the forum especially those not at your skill level yet.

No matter whether we are doing freelance or being part of the PSG community, support and discussion is what we are supposed to be about. I know there are some of you who only appear for freelance opportunities, but there is nothing I can do about it, except say too bad about your attitude.

Minimum Prices
As for minimum pricing, I am disgusted by the fact that some people appear to think they can come online and ask us to make their logos for $2.10 or $5.00 or $10.00; the more we do this, the more requests we will get of this nature, because people will follow these examples. I have had enough of it and the PSG Staff has established minimum rates. We will try it and see what happens.

Please keep up the ideas and input. We haven't really made huge changes and this is a fluid thing.

We are considering having a closed thread with multiple image examples for each category. It wouldn't be a link to a private portfolio but a portfolio or gallery of PSG artists. Your names would of course accompany the examples.

Like I said, this is fluid and any and all changes are welcome. We'll never have this so that it will please everyone, and like Steve said, in a perfect world . . . But it isn't . . . Just keep a positive but realistic view, and keep your expectations in line with this.

 

[Paul]

I would like to see all works finished on the forum also, watermarked and everything of course.