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TIF file size extremely large & color change if viewed in Windows Photo Viewer.


Vicky001

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Computer : Desktop, Windows 10 Home 64b. updated to 20H2
Photoshop : Photoshop 2020 Adobe Camera Raw Filter

The mess up:
Visited with a friend a few days ago. We shared some recent shots and did some editing in Camera Raw in on his PC, Windows 10 Home 64b. I do not remember what I did, perhaps touched a key or keys on the keyboard or accidentally clicked on something of the Photoshop, but all of a sudden everything became extremely large, extended way out of the screen borders. We could not close the windows. Alt+F4 and Ctrl+Alt+Del did not respond. We had the PC forced shutdown.

Restarted the PC and finished the editing in ACR. And saved the edited files in TIFF format as we always do.

Two issues:
Viewed the TIFF images in Windows Photo Viewer the next day. Two issues appeared:
One. All the TIFF images changed their brightness & color tone, the entire image became bluish grey and dull.
Two. All the TIFF files saved yesterday were extraordinarily large, 128MB to 139MB each file.

The change of the image colors:
All images were as beautiful as edited in ACR and saved when opened in Windows Photo Viewer, then, about one second, the entire image changed suddenly, as if opened another image.

We did some tests:

1.TIFF Image colors change.
Opened the same RAW files in ACR, edited the same way, saved the same format, opened the files in Windows Photo Viewer, images changed the same way.

2.TIFF Image colors change even no editing in ACR.
Opened the same RAR files in ACR, did nothing, saved the files in TIFF format, opened the files in Windows Photo Viewer, images changed the same way.

3.TIFF file size increase w/o editing in ACR.
RAW files opened in ACR, edited or not, then saved as TIFF & PNG files, the files sizes were 128MB to 139MB each file, and they changed color tone if viewed in Windows Photo Viewer.

4.No issue if saved in JPEG format.
The same RAW files opened to ACR edited or nor, saved in JPEG format, (A).the sizes of the JPEG files were 12MB to 16MB, seemed normal. (B).everything was all right when these JPEG images were viewed in Windows Photo Viewer, no color changes.

5.TIFF image colors not change if viewed not in Windows Photo Viewer.
The same RAW files opened to ACR, edited or nor, saved in JPEG, TIFF & PNG files, everything was normal when viewed in other apps, East Stone Image Viewer, for example, even though the TIFF & PNG files were of the same large sizes, 128MB to 139MB.

6.No issue if TIFF files edited & saved on other PC's.
The same RAW files opened to ACR on other PC's, edited, everything was normal, the file sizes of the saved TIFF files were
55MB to 63MB each file, and image colors did not change when viewed in Windows Photo Viewer.

All of these seemingly indicate that the cause of the issue was because I had messed up the ARC or PS on my friend's PC.

Help to get rid of this issue, please.

Thank you.
Vicky
 

thebestcpu

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Hi Vicky
Hard to explain all what went on without a lot more specifics yet that may not be needed.

TIFF files can get larger or smaller on two major factors
a) Was it resized
b) Was the compression setting changed

It was not clear if you were saving form ACR or going from ACR to Photoshop then saving.
There are default or preferences for ACR that might have been changed accidentally (more likely than corrupted)
Those settings allow both automatically changing size as an option as well as choices of TIFF compression

That would be my best bet.

As far as color changes. That is probably a color management issue. It also depends on if you are using the default "Photos" viewer in Windows 10 (which is not color managed) or if you are using the Windows "Photo Viewer" that is an application that came with prior Windows OS.

The most likely guess that I have is that the default preferences for the color space were modified to wide gamut (e.g. Pro Photo RGB) and then the image was viewed on a non-color managed application such as "Photos". Having the image created in a wide color space (which for the same color saturation uses smaller RGB numbers) if viewed in a non-color managed application that just sends the color numbers on to the monitor would come out looking desaturated in most cases.

This desaturated look can also happen in a number of other situations yet the key elements are to
1) Create and view images only with color managed applications
2) Have the color space embedded in the image (default case for Photoshop, ACR, and Lightroom)
3) Use a monitor that has been color calibrated.
4) The color management settings in the OS settings are set properly

Hope this is a starting point for you to solve you problems
John Wheeler
 

Vicky001

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Hi Vicky
Hard to explain all what went on without a lot more specifics yet that may not be needed.

TIFF files can get larger or smaller on two major factors
a) Was it resized
b) Was the compression setting changed

It was not clear if you were saving form ACR or going from ACR to Photoshop then saving.
There are default or preferences for ACR that might have been changed accidentally (more likely than corrupted)
Those settings allow both automatically changing size as an option as well as choices of TIFF compression

That would be my best bet.

As far as color changes. That is probably a color management issue. It also depends on if you are using the default "Photos" viewer in Windows 10 (which is not color managed) or if you are using the Windows "Photo Viewer" that is an application that came with prior Windows OS.

The most likely guess that I have is that the default preferences for the color space were modified to wide gamut (e.g. Pro Photo RGB) and then the image was viewed on a non-color managed application such as "Photos". Having the image created in a wide color space (which for the same color saturation uses smaller RGB numbers) if viewed in a non-color managed application that just sends the color numbers on to the monitor would come out looking desaturated in most cases.

This desaturated look can also happen in a number of other situations yet the key elements are to
1) Create and view images only with color managed applications
2) Have the color space embedded in the image (default case for Photoshop, ACR, and Lightroom)
3) Use a monitor that has been color calibrated.
4) The color management settings in the OS settings are set properly

Hope this is a starting point for you to solve you problems
John Wheeler
Thank you, Mr. Guru.

For general purposes, how the metadata of the TIFF format ought to be set in Save Option in ACR? There are five options:
1. Copyright Only.
2. Copyright & Contact Info Only.
3. All Except Camera Raw Info.
4. All Except Camera & Camera Raw Info.
5. All.
It is now set at "All" now.
Metadata setting.jpg


Is the "All" option the cause of the large file size (130MB,140MB,even180MB)?
192mb.jpg



When the TIFF file is saved from Photoshop after edited in ACR, I save it with the TIFF Options showing as the picture following.
Options.jpg



The colour change of the TIFF image when viewed in Windows Photo Viewer is shown by the 2 picture hereunder:
the colour.jpg

colour change.jpg

Hope this can make it easier for you to understand the issue.

Thanks.
Vicky
 

thebestcpu

Guru
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Thanks @Vicky001
Some of your questions would likely be easily answered if you provided a link to the exact TIFF file and the raw file in question through a file sharing service such as dropbox etc.
It would also be helpful to know the exact camera that created the raw file as well
Just a suggestion
John Wheeler
 

Vicky001

Member
Messages
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Hi Vicky
Hard to explain all what went on without a lot more specifics yet that may not be needed.

TIFF files can get larger or smaller on two major factors
a) Was it resized
b) Was the compression setting changed

It was not clear if you were saving form ACR or going from ACR to Photoshop then saving.
There are default or preferences for ACR that might have been changed accidentally (more likely than corrupted)
Those settings allow both automatically changing size as an option as well as choices of TIFF compression

That would be my best bet.

As far as color changes. That is probably a color management issue. It also depends on if you are using the default "Photos" viewer in Windows 10 (which is not color managed) or if you are using the Windows "Photo Viewer" that is an application that came with prior Windows OS.

The most likely guess that I have is that the default preferences for the color space were modified to wide gamut (e.g. Pro Photo RGB) and then the image was viewed on a non-color managed application such as "Photos". Having the image created in a wide color space (which for the same color saturation uses smaller RGB numbers) if viewed in a non-color managed application that just sends the color numbers on to the monitor would come out looking desaturated in most cases.

This desaturated look can also happen in a number of other situations yet the key elements are to
1) Create and view images only with color managed applications
2) Have the color space embedded in the image (default case for Photoshop, ACR, and Lightroom)
3) Use a monitor that has been color calibrated.
4) The color management settings in the OS settings are set properly

Hope this is a starting point for you to solve you problems
John Wheeler

Trying to provide some more information about the issue and the PS.

"TIFF files can get larger or smaller on two major factors
a) Was it resized
b) Was the compression setting changed"
Answers:
a) The TIFF files were not resized.
b) The compression setting was not changed, saving from ACR & PS.
01.jpg
02.jpg



"It was not clear if you were saving form ACR or going from ACR to Photoshop then saving."
Answer:
Sometimes, the TIFF files were save from ACR. Sometime they were save from PS if more editing deeded to be dome in PS.


"There are default or preferences for ACR that might have been changed accidentally (more likely than corrupted)
Those settings allow both automatically changing size as an option as well as choices of TIFF compression

That would be my best bet."

Answer:
The current preferences are showing by the screenshot here.


03.jpg
These are the current settings of the ACR in the Preference.
Is the you are referring to?
Is there anything that causes the issue?

Thank you.
Vicky
 

thebestcpu

Guru
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Hi @Vicky001
It would be a whole lot easier if you could share the TiFF file.

I did not see anything in your settings that looks like an obvious issue.

There are a number of factors that come in to play in TIFF size

Here is an initial rough calculation you can do on your own to see if the file is in the ballpark

First, multiple the image width in pixels by the image height in pixels

Then multiply by the number of color channels ( 3 for RGB, 4 for CMYK, or more if you have embedded channels in PS)

If you are saving in 16 bits vs 8 bits multiple by another factor of 2

The above gives you the non compressed size of the image file for a single Layer.

Then you add the metadata. If you include the raw file it will be quite a bit larger yet most metadata does not add that much in size

If you are saving a TIFF file that includes more pixel Layers, then that is about the same as adding more color channels (see calculations above)

In you prior images it had indications the image was 6886 x 4886 and was save as RGB 8 bit and then adding the raw image data

Without raw image data that would already be 100MB in size then you add the raw data.

The raw data size you indicated was 25.1 MB. That could not be done unless if was a compressed version of the raw file and not clear to me that when saving that as metadata that it would only use the 25.1 MB or would be a larger amount. You could turn off saving all metadata to determine how much smaller the image size will get. If an 8 bit RGB image TIFF that is single Layer with no compressions and no metadata for the example image size I inferred from you images above, then something else is going on and would require a closer examination of the file itself to determine what is going on.

So 192 MB sounds a bit high for TIFF with the assumptions I have stated.

Maybe another forum member can spot something I overlooked yet pretty sure for me to help more, I would need to see the TIFF file via a file sharing service.
Hope this helps
John Wheeler
 

Vicky001

Member
Messages
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Likes
0
Hi @Vicky001
It would be a whole lot easier if you could share the TiFF file.

I did not see anything in your settings that looks like an obvious issue.

There are a number of factors that come in to play in TIFF size

Here is an initial rough calculation you can do on your own to see if the file is in the ballpark

First, multiple the image width in pixels by the image height in pixels

Then multiply by the number of color channels ( 3 for RGB, 4 for CMYK, or more if you have embedded channels in PS)

If you are saving in 16 bits vs 8 bits multiple by another factor of 2

The above gives you the non compressed size of the image file for a single Layer.

Then you add the metadata. If you include the raw file it will be quite a bit larger yet most metadata does not add that much in size

If you are saving a TIFF file that includes more pixel Layers, then that is about the same as adding more color channels (see calculations above)

In you prior images it had indications the image was 6886 x 4886 and was save as RGB 8 bit and then adding the raw image data

Without raw image data that would already be 100MB in size then you add the raw data.

The raw data size you indicated was 25.1 MB. That could not be done unless if was a compressed version of the raw file and not clear to me that when saving that as metadata that it would only use the 25.1 MB or would be a larger amount. You could turn off saving all metadata to determine how much smaller the image size will get. If an 8 bit RGB image TIFF that is single Layer with no compressions and no metadata for the example image size I inferred from you images above, then something else is going on and would require a closer examination of the file itself to determine what is going on.

So 192 MB sounds a bit high for TIFF with the assumptions I have stated.

Maybe another forum member can spot something I overlooked yet pretty sure for me to help more, I would need to see the TIFF file via a file sharing service.
Hope this helps
John Wheeler

Thank you, Mr. Wheeler.

"Some of your questions would likely be easily answered if you provided a link to the exact TIFF file and the raw file in question through a file sharing service such as dropbox etc."

We cannot do this. My friend's PC is shared with her husband & located in a place where prohibits such behaviors.

We have found something else:

Layman's assumption.
The ACR editing-data is attached to the RAW file once it is edited by ACR.

Something happened on March 5 2021 while editing a RAW file in ACR.
Everything became extremely large & the PC was dead.

Before this incident, RAW files (a)which had been edited by ACR (b)which had changed their locations (c)were opened again at new location, they appeared in ACR as new RAW files.

After this incident, RAW files (a)which had been edited by ACR (b))which had changed their locations (c)were opened again at new location, they appeared in ACR as RAW files now being edited by ACR.

Because of this, we assume,maybe this is what that makes the TIFF files large, 140~195MB each, (the editing data were attached to the RAW files and the TIFF file) and makes Windows Photo Viewer
cannot show the TIFF images as edited by ACR. Thus, Windows Photo Viewer can only show the images as if they were saved by ACR without editing data (because Windows Photo Viewer can not read the ACR editing date ).

Does this make any sense? Would like to see your instructions, please.
Much appreciate.

Vicky
 

thebestcpu

Guru
Messages
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Hi @Vicky001
Quite the tough mystery.
Without access to the problem TIff file I do not know how to provide more help that what I have already provided.
Possibly another forum member will see you postings have some additional ideas for you.

John Wheeler
 

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