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idea


tough one , no matter how good your watermark is the image and idea are there to steal
an escort account would be good but im sure it is fraught with problems too
id say post a image once , maybe not finished just the idea and then if the op wants revisions then no one do any untilhe selects an artist and then the fees will be between them

for me it was about practice so i wasnt too worried and i settled on the pyramid logo which i was pretty happy with in the end , i really didnt expect to win the job yet but who knows , if you luck on a good idea and have a honest person all the better
 
Something has you wound to tight dude relax
 
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I don't think an escrow account will work in the forum. As mentioned, it is costly and the freelance fees won't justify it.

This is the risk we have to go through doing freelance in the web and at a forum. As was mentioned before, we will never be able to tell the difference between good paymasters and cheats who come here.

Cases like these also happen at bonafide freelance sites.


This is not related to the discussion but needs addressing.

I have noticed , that a lot of designs submitted are huge. I know you want to show the best of what your design has to offer but this should be considered a NO-NO.

No offense meant to designer or job OP - it's just to show my point - http://www.photoshopgurus.com/forum...rite-security-money-available-gr-01-01-2-.jpg

With a size like that, you may have just given away a sure freebie.

Had it been made smaller, cropped to just around the logo , and saved at a smaller image size 72dpi , you would have made it harder for one to reproduce the logo. Move the watermark closer together , the mark will really stand out.

Even then , it's not a guarantee that the design can't be replicated but I feel it's better to submit a low res image rather than a high res (500dpi).
 
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I completely agree with Steve, in that the freelance section is a service that this site is kind enough to offer. It is in no way meant to be a primary income source or should they have to monitor or babysit every transaction. You want to participate in the freelance work that does come through, you roll the dice like any freelance job, and take your chances.

You start coming up with all of these nit picky rules and the clients that do come through are going to find it WAY too much of a hassle and go somewhere else. AND THERE ARE MANY "SOMEWHERE ELSE'S" TO GO".

I've been screwed over by many a client, I've had many a client just disappear for no apparent reason before work even started.
Who knows why people do the seemingly rude things that they do. Yes it sucks to put hours and hours of work into something for no return, but you get over it and move on.
 
mods are monitoring watermarks , why not size as well , maybe slightly bigger then thumbnails and at a low res
 
if someone is looking for ideas even a thumbnail in most cases gives someone with a thought process block, ideas. Sometimes the way things work, you just have to grin and bare it or eliminate it all together.:banghead: Not everyone is out for that(freebiesor stealing), and sometimes members get lucky here. It definitely is not a steady, reliable income
 
I just find it weird that anyone with enough skill to copy, should ask for help in the first place.
 
Interesting. We have a freelance discussion every 3 or 4 months! I like them because we get to express our frustration and we even come up with some good ideas.

I really like the idea of offering the OP only a sketchy idea and in a small format dv8. If they just want to steal the idea, well, you have maybe 10 minutes into making a sketch, not an hour pen tooling and reshaping, choosing colors, adding effects, etc. IDK if I can sketch well enough, but I can use the pen tool well enough to make a quick facsimile of a sketch and create the skeleton of an idea. I was recently very annoyed by the guy and his angel wings charitable kids group. He never gave me anything but critical feedback and liked chrisix's 5 minute rendition! Sorry Chris, that is half a joke. Self-deprecating one at that. I was enjoying doing it, but made several mistakes. High resolution images posted, too much time spent guessing what the client wanted and being wrong, then still doing another. I think even making an image of low quality as far as effort is concerned and maybe even putting a threshold filter on it, with color swatches on the side, might be the way to go.

Just one more idea. My late husband used to tell me, you have a thousand ideas, and now and then one is good! Compared me to Linus Pauling! Coulda been worse; he could have compared me to Jim Carey (of course, I have to admit that Carey had many good money making ideas). No offense to those who like him; he's just not my cup of tea or can of flat coke maybe.
 
Once again, you the freelancer should work out your own deal with the client.

These suggestions require the staff here to not only check for a watermark, now we need to check for size, and then we need to determine if you've gone to far in posting a draft image, and we need to delete any image you post after the first image.


offering the OP only a sketchy idea and in a small format
Click to expand...
mods are monitoring watermarks , why not size as well
Click to expand...
id say post a image once , maybe not finished just the idea and then if the op wants revisions then no one do any until he selects an artist and then the fees will be between them
Click to expand...

Does this really sound reasonable?

You start coming up with all of these nit picky rules and the clients that do come through are going to find it WAY too much of a hassle
Click to expand...
Exactly.
It's unrealistic to think that the staff here should spend time arbitrarily determining these parameters.
And even if all the current freelancers agreed to a strict set of parameters, there'll be a new guy every day ignoring that agreement

You the freelancer need to work out your own deal with the client.
 
Well, we've heard from the voice of reason twice now guys (not to mention the voice being admin). It's been a stimulating discussion, but as usual, freelance on a forum like this is pretty wysiwyg.
 
Part 1/2

Hey guys,

I'm new to the board but I would love to chime in on this debate from the other side of the equation, as the OP. BTW I'm long winded. There I said it... Twice now! As a result, this post is a 2-parter.

I completely see the dilemma here and I sympathize with you. I'm not sure if I have any solutions to offer, just another opinion which may not be entirely helpful but at least it is from the client side.

I've been trolling this board for a while now and have a great deal of respect for many of you. The quality of the designs I've seen can be every bit as good as a professional firm which is why I've continued to follow the artists/designers here and why I will ultimately use your services.

In the time I've been trolling, I've seen many threads where 1) Op's ask for help, then disappears, 2) Ops ask for something free and criticize it for no reason (ibclaire, I saw the winged charity one), 4) Ops describe a project and never offer feedback on works in progress, and the worst... 4) Ops promise money for a logo/contract job and just vanish.

As a business person I think it's deplorable to solicit someones time and effort with the promise of money and vanish. To reneged on a promise of a financial reward is unacceptable. Even if they don't steal the work in the end, it's still time wasted. At least if the work was stolen, the designer could feel some fleeting sense of pride in that the work was at least used, even if they got screwed!

From the client side:
As some of you stated, the last thing you want to do is drive potential customers away. More rules is not the answer. I agree with ibclaire here about less rules, and iDad about pushing clients away.

Escrow is a good idea in theory and would weed out the tire kickers but then you've got related costs involved in that process which would come out of an already small pot of money, and the headache of administration. The other issue with Escrow is if the OP isn't satisfied with any of the submissions. Putting money into escrow before seeing the artists offerings is committing to buy something sight on seen and in this business, sight is everything!

Ops should be free to change their mind should they not find an artistic vision matching their own. To your credit however, many of the posts by Ops fail to clearly define what they are after and they RARELY provide any helpful feedback on preliminary designs... I would find this incredibly frustrating!

While I have been lurking here a while, it hasn't been *THAT* long, so I'm not sure if this is accurate or not but... I would assume many of the 'customers' who come to this forum are probably not corporate clients. Just by the nature of the medium, the clientele you attract is likely less serious individuals with a limited budget, just getting started, interested in graphic design themselves (why else would they arrive here) and unfortunately may include a higher-than-average number of people looking to take advantage.

That's not to say larger clients or customers can't come out of some freelance work, but if a company is looking to hire a design firm, it's unlikely they would be trolling hobbyist forums for artists & designers. I mean that with a great deal of respect, the work I've seen here can be every bit as good as a professional firm but the context must be taken into account, ie that this is a community forum, not a PR/Design firm.

So now that I've profiled your typical client, you're wondering which one am I... well I actually arrived here because of an unrelated forum. I designed a really crappy video game in school a while ago with a classmate of mine who was active over in the Newgrounds community. (Can't link because I don't have the min number of posts required)

For the project, we needed some limited artwork that was better than what our MS paint skills could produce. My classmate had been a member of the community for over 12 years so we drew on his resources there and I came to learn there are vast networks of underground and burgeoning artists contained in forums such as this one with incredibly deep talent pools. Many are happy to hone their skills for free or a small carrot as they build their portfolios. Win-win, artist/designer gets a bit of scratch, OP gets a great deal on quality work! I really love this concept of going to the root source of talent.

Portfolio thread

From the admin side:
As Steve said multiple times, they are the dating service and prefer to not be overly involved. The site is a tool to bring people together, not to play babysitter or act as mediator for negotiations. The hands off approach is understandable.

Also, managing an escrow service wouldn't be practical for such low volume and small amounts of cash, plus they admins are doing it (I'm assuming) for the love of it and don't want to be burdened with additional responsibility.

One question I had for you guys, I notice often threads are locked if an OP disappears after 3 days. What does this do exactly? The Op can still see the posts or copy the images from it... I don't see any benefit to this other than making it harder for the OP to respond. If I was an OP, posted a request and came back a week later to find the thread locked, I might assume (without going back and reading the whole thread) that the mods shut it down or that no one else is interested.

If I wasn't great with forums, I may try to post a follow up (maybe i was away on business) and find there is no reply button so I just give up and go elsewhere... I guess I don't see the point of locking nor do I see it as a beneficial thing. If the purpose is to prevent additional artists from wasting time, that can be achieved by a post from the Mod/Admin saying no further submissions until we hear back, but at least leave the thread open so if the OP does come back they can respond...
 
Part 2/2

So how can you protect yourself? Suggestions for improvement?
This is ultimately the question... I've got a couple suggestions although nothing that is ground breaking.

The first thing I would love to see on the forum is a portfolio. That is the bread and butter of any artist or designer's sales pitch. Perhaps I haven't looked hard enough and it already exists but I see that as missing from this current arrangement. Some of you have your own websites in your sig. which is great (assuming there is a portfolio there or examples of your work) but for others (most?) there is no way I can quickly go and access examples of your work.

You guys want a commitment (payment up front) from OP's but there is really no way for an OP to see examples of your works at a glance. The only way I guess would be if they actively lurked over time and watched creations as they were produced.

If the forum software is capable of it, I would love to see a portfolio section, linked under your avatar, sig etc. If a gallery cannot be created, there should be a master thread/forum called 'Portfolios'. I saw there was a graphic design showroom but that's not really a portfolio.

Under the main 'Portfolios' thread/forum, each artist could have their own thread simply titled as their name, posts in that thread would be exclusively images and pictures from past projects, html links to companies or businesses showcasing your work etc. Mods would have to perform minimal maintenance deleting non-conforming posts but essentially a place I could go and at a glance see a collection of examples of work from specific artists/designers here on the board. If you expect an Op to come and pre-pay for work, at least they should know the quality of work you can produce and your personal style.

In that portfolio thread, the first post could be a list of services you provide, and work you prefer or are best at. Your individual should be linked in all of your sigs, and under the "About Me" section or somewhere in your profile! Even a link under your avatar would be great.. then as I'm reading through an unrelated forum, and I see something you've done that I like, I can simply click to the left or in the sig and see your portfolio...

I recently tried to view the work from a few people in particular on this board and didn't have any luck. When I search all posts by you, it gives the 2 line snippit of the post but no images are included so I don't know which posts have images or not. Anyway long story short, it would be great if you could promote your work through example and make it easy for a potential OP to see!


I agree with the watermarks and the low-res images. This may be defeatable and it won't protect your intellectual concepts, it is a first line of defence and a simple thing you can do to protect yourself! It's a great start and I don't think any reasonable OP would expect you to hand over full res unmarked images until payment has been made.

My next suggestion is more to do with relationship management. This is more the business / sales side talking, but if you want to win an op over and increase your chances of being paid, I would say invest a little time in building some rapport. The current system is some anonymous person who has confirmed a working email addy puts a challenge out to you guys... you trip over yourselves to toss great ideas out one after another. You know nothing about the client and have no connection there.

I'm suggesting you treat it more like a bit of a consultation... "Let's chat so I understand exactly what you're looking for and can provide you the best service possible"... doing that not only results in a happier client (they get something closer to what they envisioned in their mind) but it also builds a bit of a relationship and they would feel more obligation to pay for the work.

I realize this isn't going to stop scammers... there is little you can do to prevent people who come into this with bad intentions... but if you throw a bunch of drawings at someone without even saying hello, they just think, oh these guys do this cause they love it, there is no ownis on the op to compensate. I'm not saying guilt them into it, but if they recognize that you spend real time and effort in hopes of something in return, the likelihood is higher they will pay. Remember companies go to PR/design firms and pay crazy prices because they establish relationships.

As an example, send them a message/email, get some personal contact info from them... "could you please provide me with an email so I can send proofs to..." At least if someone bails, you've got a personal email to harass them with, or remind them to come back and pick an idea. This helps you establish some connection with them. Send them an email, engage them.

I realize some of you are just doing this for fun, and have no interest in doing the consultation bit, I'm just trying to offer some suggestions as to how you can reduce the instances of people walking. The last thing you want is to throw a bunch of proofs out there for an OP and have them take your ideas to a firm and pay $$$ that should have been in your pocket. I'm not sure if that happens but it certainly could with the current system.

Ok, this is getting long as usual so I'll wrap it up, but I did want to comment on one more thing regarding a post by Paul. While I totally understand where you're coming from when you suggest everything should be posted on the forums for all to see, there are lots of cases where this isn't the best approach.

The nice thing (for the OP) about having it on a forum is an OP gets to play you against one another. I'll give $50 for the best design... that's great if you've got the best but it sucks if you're the second best and have spent just as much time. It is also good for the OP because every post is going to influence the next post... If iDad submits a design and ibclare takes that idea and runs with it, I as a customer will get a better result, especially if I'm' offering good feedback along the way.

As I mentioned before, the nature of your clients may include people just attempting to start businesses or ideas. A logo is often the place people start, themes are built around that and sometimes so is the business (name, domain etc.). This is when posting on the forum won't work for an OP. I'm in this exact situation now. I would LOVE to post my idea request on a forum and have a bunch of people working on it simultaneously but the reality is confidentiality is worth more to me than cheap design labour.

I've got a business idea in my mind. I do not have a logo, I do not have a company name established, I do not have copyrights or trademarks, nor do I have the domain names locked up. I've got absolutely no protection for my idea and the last thing I want is to post it in a public forum for someone else to steal. Posting stuff publicly on the web is out there forever and for everyone to see. Web engine crawlers gobble up the info for all to search and that's it. If you search my name on google, a post from an old thread on a car enthusiast forum comes up from 1996.

The last thing i need is to put a logo request out there, and have some enterprising individual hijack the domain and extort me later. Anyway I'll leave it at that, just recognize that a public forum isn't an idea medium for someone attempting to establish a business to spill their creative ideas. That is another advantage a professional firm has.

I'm not sure if it's possible but does this forum software allow locked threads that are not visible to the public or search engine crawlers? EG: I post a thread "Logo design contract", lock it so no one can see the content of the posts and invite only certain artists to join? This could be another suggestion to generate more work. Confidentiality could attract more customers, and more serious ones.

My $0.02.

P.S., chuckling at the "post QUICK reply" button!
P.P.S. did you guys know the max text for a forum post is 10,000 characters? lol.
 
Part 2 is delayed for approval...

I was just looking and noticed someone had a gallery linked in their sig. which was one of my suggestions... I guess this means it is possible and some are doing it, but I don't see it on many profiles. I'd love to see this in everyone's sig, or in their profile page... how would I go about accessing galleries for everyone? Is there a place you can browse?
 
Konesky. Thank you for the post. Very interesting reading. I would like to respond to a few points, not to all because I agree with many.

I have encouraged members to make an album here and put the link to it in their signatures. I think that is the easiest way for us to have portfolios on the site. The option is there already, just use it. To have a portfolio link below the avatar, would still require another click and wouldn't be, it seems to me, any more convenient than going to a PSG album from a signature. The about me thread could be a good place to post a list of services however and that is a good suggestion, though it would mean probably finding another way to publicize that info . . . IDK.

We do encourage the Client to give us as much information as they can. The guidelines try to be helpful regarding what is good or not. The latest one I made a logo entry for did not specify much nor come back to give feedback. At that point I posted asking for more information. I freely admit that this should have been done upfront. Building a personal rapport is a good idea. It comes around of course to the question of how much regulation should the forum impose.

Once the OP and the freelancer are communicating via email, designs are easier to send via email than post on the thread and that is likely what will happen. That in itself is fine. What we ask is that a member post the intent to communicate, and that the OP or the member freelancer return to let us know the job is complete. We have asked that the final design be posted so we can all see it and so future clients may also.

But as you have observed, this can go awry and often does. We realize that we really have no control over some actions, whether ethical or otherwise. Yes, we will close a thread when their is no feedback over several days. Perhaps we should have a standard message when we do so, making it known that the thread can be reopened by contacting a moderator. Sometimes we say we are closing the thread and if the OP returns please contact staff, and provide a link to the contact page. This link is also included in the Guidelines for Posting a Freelance Job. In all fairness, that link is at the end of the long version of the instructions.

But in fairness to us, an OP who is going to be gone for several days, or a week, etc., ought to take 5 minutes to post this information on the thread. Business sense of that? Well, the customer knows best and is paying us, right? OK, so if the client just wants to go away and come back at his/her leisure, I guess that is their prerogative. In the real world, working with a PR firm, I think a client would keep the firm informed of their intentions. But you're right, we aren't a PR/Design firm, we're a forum. The work to be received here is at such a cut rate that I am not sure if it warrants more respect or simply engenders lack of respect.

We have already knocked around the escrow idea and nixed it. By the way, although we did discuss the idea of payment up front due to the number of clients who "vanish," we have never done that nor expected that, nor did the proposal mean that a client would put their money in and couldn't be refunded if no design fit the job. I suggested that it would probably be too expensive for the kind of work done here so I hear you on that point. I actually cannot say why it seems to be a more trend that people are doing the work privately when it seemed at one time to be the rule that we all competed openly in the forum. Perhaps that is due to the fact that we revised our guidelines and added a minimum price list. One week we had one offer of $5.00 and another of $2.50. They take that much as a fee on PayPal!

As for the competition and the freedom of choice on your part, we know that you don't have to pick a design if none please you. But when the OP just disappears into thin air with no feedback whatsoever, how are we supposed to know if someone was chosen, if our ideas sucked, etc?You have expressed your understanding and sympathy on this situation and I appreciate that.

As for posting your request, receiving a design you like, then having it stolen by someone else? Well, that can't be avoided in any event if someone wants to do that. Once your logo is on your website, it's there for the taking as well as here. I find it hard to support the idea that we would always do this in the blind and not share each other's work. After all, we are a forum and sharing and learning from each other is what we are mostly about. On the other hand, there are requests for image editing, etc., in which the client thinks there image inappropriate for public viewing (and if they think so, I'm sure it is); there are business requests for logos for which results are never posted. These are the choice of the client, simply not the the norm.

I think I have covered all that came up for me. I really want you to know that I think your thoughtfulness on this subject is unique and very valuable to us. Thank you for that.
 
One more thing, you can go to a profile and scroll down to the album box. If a person has made one, it will be there. But I agree, more portfolios should be included in people's signatures. As I said, members have been encouraged to do this. Perhaps your statement/question as a potential client will drive the point home.
 
Thanks ibclare for the thoughtful response as well.

Glad my insight is at least somewhat helpful despite it's length! Sounds like we agree on a lot! I went to your profile and saw where you mean about the albums... then I clicked on the profiles of several other significant contributors (some admin even) and noticed yours was the only one with albums that I found. To be fair, some have their own websites although even those are not always clear on what they do.

My hope is more people will take a few samples of their better work and throw it up in an album/thread and include some links in various places. To stumble upon the site as a potential client is the first challenge... the second is to figure out who does what type of work, and the third is to figure out if they are decent or not (that of course is personal opinion subject to viewing some examples).

It's no surprise the OP's are few and far between although to be fair that isn't exactly the purpose of this forum as you pointed out. That said, as an OP myself (I still haven't figured out what OP means, opportunity?), I'm still trying to figure out who does what and who does it well! Some do photo touch-ups, some logos, some websites, some do it all, and some do it better than others... I guess the solution is to post a new thread soliciting help with a basic description and see who throws their hat in the ring... but then there is always the odd client who wants confidentiality!

I'm quickly realizing there is no right answer or solution to all of this. Ultimately you're doing this because you enjoy it. If someone takes advantage, you just have to shrug it off I suppose. In the meantime, I really value having direct access to designers and artists through mediums like this and to be able to take advantage of top notch work at cut rate prices as you said. For those OP's out there who are keen enough to seek out venues like this, it's a real goldmine of talent, and the designers I suppose get their own satisfaction out of it, gain a little more experience each time, build their portfolio and hopefully make a bit of scratch with their spare-time hobby.

Anyway just a blanket thank you too all the contributors in this forum who help make this community possible. I'm sorry things don't always work out but don't get discouraged, there are lots of people out there who really value your work.
 
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